Crossbows are coming to PA

[wtnhunt]

Used to be only those with physical limitation were allowed to use crossbows during the archery season here. They made crossbows legal for archery here a few years back, from what I heard there was a spike in sales for crossbows around here, not sure it has made for many more hunters in this area taking up archery though. Will continue to hunt with my compound.

[Doc]

There is not one argument for the inclusion of crossbows in bow season that wouldn't equally apply to muzzleloaders or rifles either for that matter. I challenge anyone to come up with one pro-crossbow argument that doesn't apply to any weapon. So why not just cut the messing around and replace the bowseason with an "any-weapon" season. Then, according to the x-bow enthusiasts, that time slot in the year will be filled with all kinds of new hunters, bowhunters will have shown that they are not really the selfish, no-good, season hoarders that they have been accused of, and nobody would be saddled with the pain of practice and development of bothersome physical and mental disciplines. Just think how the new peace and fellowship that would spread throughout the hunting community would benefit the entire sport. It's time to 'steam-roll' those belligerent bowhunters who insist that bowseason be reserved for bows. What kind of silly idea is that anyway?

By the way, I did read the part in the original post about not turning this into a debate. After reading many of the posts I finally figured out that that was code for "unless you agree with this PA decision, keep your mouth shut". Sorry.......no can do!

Doc

[ruttinbuc]

You nailed it Doc, ...nailed it!!!

Edited January 28, 2009 by ruttinbuc
SO MUCH FOR DEBATE FREE ;^)

[need2hunt]

There is not one argument for the inclusion of crossbows in bow season that wouldn't equally apply to muzzleloaders or rifles either for that matter. I challenge anyone to come up with one pro-crossbow argument that doesn't apply to any weapon.

The state of Illinois is looking at them and I for one would like to see it approved, and that wasn't my perspective until after I used one last year.

For your challenge Doc:D:D Here in Illinois we do not have an age restriction for hunting, I have two girls ages 9 and 12as well as co-workers with younger children that love to hunt but have not been able to pull back the legal draw weight for hunting, we can take them to other states such as Florida or Ohio to let them hunt with a crossbow but don't have that option in our state. With a crossbow they would be able to go hunt with me during bow season. We as hunters know that our numbers are decreasing, with a crossbow we could start kids off at an earlier age and keep some of our numbers as opposed to waiting until they are older and possibly losing them to other things.

If a crossbow made a boom like a muzzleloader or rifle I would agree with you on your any weapon theory, however it does not.

[jm23494]

There is not one argument for the inclusion of crossbows in bow season that wouldn't equally apply to muzzleloaders or rifles either for that matter. I challenge anyone to come up with one pro-crossbow argument that doesn't apply to any weapon. So why not just cut the messing around and replace the bowseason with an "any-weapon" season.

The problem here in PA is that it is so easy to go out and shoot a deer with a gun that nearly everyone does it. There are more hunters out in the woods on the first two days of our rifle season than some states have population. Making the early archery season into an any weapon season would be a nightmare. having several million people tromping through the woods with no clue of how to hunt a deer and just looking to shoot something doesn't sound like a fun time to me. Hunting is about putting time and effort into scouting and practicing to make that perfect shot when you have the chance. Not just picking up a gun and license at Dick's or Walmart and heading straight into the woods to shoot the first thing you see.

As Don and several others have stated the PGC has done a great job at decimating the deer herd here. When I first started hunting almost 16 years ago I would see two to three dozen deer a day on private land. Since then I'm lucky if I see one or two a day on the same land, and if we kill 2 deer off of it a year it is outstanding. The have tried to implement antler restrictions to allow immature bucks to enter into the breeding cycle. But those that hunt here know how that is working. Right now the buck to doe ratio in this state is so far out of whack that I don't know if it can ever be fixed. Now with the new crossbow regulations it will only make things worse since everyone who can't shoot a compound bow will be able to hunt archery.

[ruttinbuc]

It is not about those who can't shoot a crossbow. It is about those crossover rifle and gun hunters who never would have picked a bow to hunt with in the first place further decimating that deer herd even farther. Like I said, if they would knock the limit down to one doe and one and one buck I would be a little better with it. But not by much.

Children up to 14 and the disabled...fine.

Edited January 28, 2009 by ruttinbuc
still opinionating

[Tominator]

I apologize if I upset anyone.

I come at this with a different perspective I guess. I've never hunted deer in PA, so I don't know what the herd is like there, nor do I know the game laws.

I do know Ohio, and as long as I've been hunting, crossbows have been legal in any season here. Having said that, Ohio's herd continues to grow even after several years of liberalized doe harvest attempts.

Are there slob crossbow hunters out there? Yep, just like there's slob rifle, shotgun, and yes, slob compound bow hunters.

I think this is about having to share the woods/deer, which to be honest, I don't like either. I like going out knowing that I won't see anyone else. Jealousy? Yep, and I freely admit it.

[High Country]

In Kentucky the debate is still going on...unfortunately, it seems that no one is looking at any data. Archery season opens the first Saturday in September (no crossbows unless you have a medical exemption card or are hunting on a few state owned management areas)...since it is really too hot to seriously hunt, the only reason for this was to "offer hunters more opportunity"...and to entice out of state hunters to come to KY to try for a velvet racked buck (since most seasons open so late it is not a possibility). This move has produced basically zero change in the harvest numbers or percent of harvest, but has increased Fish and Wildlife funding (which is by license sales and taxes on hunting/fishing/boating equipment).

Kentucky then opened a crossbow season on the first Saturday in October (the traditional openning day of archery) as a compromise...the original proposal was to open crossbows to all of archery...but met with opposition.

Since the season was openned, a lot of crossbows have been sold with Fish and Wildlife getting their revenue, but no more deer have been killed. The total deer harvest has remained largely uneffected as has the percentage of harvest.

In Kentucky, the vast majority of deer (88% +) are taken during the 10-21 day modern gun (rifle) season. About 9% of the remaining deer are taken with muzzleloaders, and the remaining 3% are taken with archery/crossbow equipment.

About the only actual impacts that our crossbow season has had is a slight increase in the number of hunters (most would still be hunting without a crossbow) and increased funding to the Fish and Wildlife department...that actually does a pretty good job here.

Of course, I am waiting on KDFWR to open a 7 day handgun season with .44 Magnum revolvers being the minimum, simply because a bunch of hunters will run out and purchase hand-cannons (and the department will get the excise taxes) and the number of deer killed will still basically stay the same.

Basically, the more hunters buying licenses and supporting the agencies responsible for up keeping game animals the better, especially when 5 years of data supports that it does NO harm.

BTW--Kentucky has a deer population in excess of 1 million with annual harvests of around 120,000...with one of the best opportunities around for a B&C deer...even on public land (missed a 180 class deer with my compound bow three years ago)

Has a fantastic and expanding elk herd...with expanded hunting options next year...about 1000 tags.

Is opening a bear season next year...

The hunting is getting better and better...in part thanks to the contributions of the crossbow hunters.

[007hunter]

By the way, I did read the part in the original post about not turning this into a debate. After reading many of the posts I finally figured out that that was code for "unless you agree with this PA decision, keep your mouth shut". Sorry.......no can do!Doc

I shouldv'e worded my statement better. My intentions were to keep this thread from going where every other crossbow vs compound goes. Doc, have you ever hunted PA? Specifically during the first few days of rifle? Its an experience like no other...

[elkoholic]

Bad idea in my opinion. While overall harvest figures may not change much, there will be an increase in hunters which will decrease the hunting experience. Archery hunting is not about opportunity and all this legislation does is open the door for less serious, "take the easy way", sort of quasi hunter to infiltrate a special time of year. Most states already have rules in place to allow for crossbow usage when appropriate.

Another note, when it comes to muzzle loaders, they might as well just have extended the regular rifle season as to allow modern in-line muzzle loaders that can reach out past 200 yards. That is another story.

[Doc]

The state of Illinois is looking at them and I for one would like to see it approved, and that wasn't my perspective until after I used one last year.

For your challenge Doc:D:D Here in Illinois we do not have an age restriction for hunting, I have two girls ages 9 and 12as well as co-workers with younger children that love to hunt but have not been able to pull back the legal draw weight for hunting, we can take them to other states such as Florida or Ohio to let them hunt with a crossbow but don't have that option in our state. With a crossbow they would be able to go hunt with me during bow season. We as hunters know that our numbers are decreasing, with a crossbow we could start kids off at an earlier age and keep some of our numbers as opposed to waiting until they are older and possibly losing them to other things.

If a crossbow made a boom like a muzzleloader or rifle I would agree with you on your any weapon theory, however it does not.

As I stated above, that same argument could be used to push for muzzleloaders, rifles and shotguns to be included in bowseason.

I repeat there is not a single argument for inclusion of crossbows in bow season that could not also be used for any other kind of weapon.

As far as the "Any weapon" season replacement for bow season, that was suggested with tongue-in-cheek. However, I would guess that any bowhunter who would seriously be in favor of such a change probably would be those who own, lease, or otherwise control their own hunting land such that they can shut off the excess pressure and insulate themselves from trying to have to bowhunt in such a circus atmosphere. Those people probably would be content to adopt the attitude, "I have mine and the heck with the rest of you". Perhaps if I were not relegated to hunting public lands, I might be able to have the same "feel good" attitude about promoting a huge gunhunter crossover into bowseason.

As far as crossbows being a key to increased over-all hunter numbers, don't you believe it. Crossbows are just a device that allows a huge re-distribution of existing hunters from gun season to bow season. in other words, it is just a first step toward that mythical "Any Weapon" season.

Doc

[Doc]

I shouldv'e worded my statement better. My intentions were to keep this thread from going where every other crossbow vs compound goes. Doc, have you ever hunted PA? Specifically during the first few days of rifle? Its an experience like no other...

Actually, any discussion of crossbows in bow season is going to be met with passionate pros and cons. So no matter what disclaimers are added you cannot raise this subject without it becoming a hotly contested debate. And yes, that will include x-bow bashing as well as x-bow support.

I have not experienced the PA rifle season, however gun season here in NY cannot be that much better. That is why I am so adamant about turning back efforts to make our bowseasons simulate those circus like hunting conditions. Our own gun season can have situations where you seldom are out of site of other hunters. If you don't see the hunters, you see their tracks in the snow. They have virtually been everywhere. Just the mere presence of that many hunters in the woods puts the deer into nocturnal, high security mode even without a shot being fired. Trying to pattern deer or arrange a close range encounter necessary for bowhunting success in such a situation would be nearly impossible for those of us that don't own or lease or otherwise control our hunting lands, in other words, relegated to public lands. Is it any wonder that any serious archer who must do his bowhunting on public lands might be a bit upset by schemes to pave the way for a massive influx of gunhunters to invade the fall bowhunting woods?

Doc

[Doc]

In Kentucky the debate is still going on...unfortunately, it seems that no one is looking at any data.

While you are busy looking at the data, take a look at Ohio harvest numbers. I use Ohio because they have a longer history of crossbow use than any of the other states, and therefore a larger body of meaningful data, showing REAL trends. You will note that the crossbow harvests significantly outnumber the vertical bow harvests. In other words it has turned into bowhunters being allowed to participate in their own season by the crossbow hunters. Too bad for the bowhunters if a rift ever develops between the two.

As far as the impacts that crossbows might have on deer populations, anybody can guess, but most likely that's all it would be is a guess. However, it would stand to reason that if you artificially ramp up the number of hunters in bowseason by any significant amount, one might expect the harvest to increase to some extent. On the other hand that might be a good thing, so I really don't get into arguing crossbows based on its effect on deer populations. Personally, I really doubt that populations can be significantly impacted by the presence of crossbows. The only thing that I have seen do an effective job on populations is weather and excessive numbers of antlerless permits. However, addition of x-bows to archery season would not help the already loud whining that we hear about the bowhunters taking all the decent bucks before the gunners even get a chance at them. I'm sure that right or wrong, that growing animosity would take a large spike if x-bows were added to the bowseason. Perception becomes reality even if the perception is wrong. So if we want to promote more discord in the hunting community, crossbows may be the answer.

As far as x-bows being a boone to the state environmental conservation administrators, there is no doubt that there is money to be had by stuffing new weapons into any season anywhere you can get away with it, and having extra categories of licenses to sell. So is that the way we want to define our hunting experiences. The heck with the quality of the hunt, let's just look at the bottom line? How much money can we pry out of our hunting seasons if we disregard the quality of the hunting experience.

Yes, we do have "hunting for sale" on private game farms and hunting preserves. Personally I don't think I want that mentality taking over our state wildlife managment motives.

Doc

[Tominator]

While you are busy looking at the data, take a look at Ohio harvest numbers. I use Ohio because they have a longer history of crossbow use than any of the other states, and therefore a larger body of meaningful data, showing REAL trends. You will note that the crossbow harvests significantly outnumber the vertical bow harvests.

I'd like to see these numbers. I've never actually looked, but then again, I've never seen them.

[ruttinbuc]

Nailed it again, Doc...Spot on!

[Ohiobucks]

While you are busy looking at the data, take a look at Ohio harvest numbers. I use Ohio because they have a longer history of crossbow use than any of the other states, and therefore a larger body of meaningful data, showing REAL trends. You will note that the crossbow harvests significantly outnumber the vertical bow harvests. In other words it has turned into bowhunters being allowed to participate in their own season by the crossbow hunters. Too bad for the bowhunters if a rift ever develops between the two.

Show me the numbers to back up your claim.

I've got an opinion about crossbow use, and I've got an opinion about a few of the comments in this thread. I'm going to keep them to myself for now.

[Rhino]

Show me the numbers to back up your claim.

Tom & Chris.

I think these are the numbers Doc is talking about...at least for 4 of the past 5 seasons. I don't know why but when I tried to get the 04-05 season data it kept giving the the 03-04 season data.

You can review PDF publications of the summaries yourself here.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hunting__trapping/HuntingandTrappingSubhomePage/BuckeyeBigBuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx

[Ohiobucks]

Interesting, thanks Al.

[Rhino]

Interesting, thanks Al.

Red Neckerson at your service.

[fly]

Trying to keep a debate out of this one was futile.

I'm fine with IL giving the ok for x-bows, as long as it is only legal during the firearm seasons. I'd even be ok with a x-bow season for a weekend or even a week. But treating them the same as a bow and allowing them during the generous archery season is a mistake in my opinion.

[VermontHunter]

I still hold firm on the notion that who are we to dictate who uses what to harvest an animal with, if it's a legal weapon ... :rolleyes:

Our ML/2nd Archery season runs in Dec.. My weapon of choice just so happens to be my compound bow, my father on the other hand likes his ML ,, but my father-in-law on the other hand doesn't own and can't use a compound and also doesn't own a ML and doesn't want the expense of one so he uses his crossbow.

Nice mix of weapons for one 2 week season I would say ,, and get this I don't think anyone from this state really cares, at least I've never really heard a big debate about it, as long as they got to hunt and have the chance to tag an animal.

And I would also dare to say that deer population/harvest compared to most any other state would be laughable ..

By the sounds of this NO CROSSBOWS ALLOWED thing is that compound users just don't want more traffic in the woods than there already is ... (could be wrong tho) ,, and sounds allot like when compounds were introduced to the hunting world and the traditional shooters went completely ballistic about it and claiming that compound users weren't true archers and should be included in the archery season and should have their own ...

I really thought this was about the hunting experience and not the weapon ... I'm just glad that this weapon and others are availble so I have the chance to hunt with people I enjoy being with ..

OK, enough rant from me about a state I don't hunt in ..

[Tominator]

Tom & Chris.

I think these are the numbers Doc is talking about...at least for 4 of the past 5 seasons. I don't know why but when I tried to get the 04-05 season data it kept giving the the 03-04 season data.

You can review PDF publications of the summaries yourself here.

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Home/hunting__trapping/HuntingandTrappingSubhomePage/BuckeyeBigBuckClub/BBBCrecords/tabid/18781/Default.aspx

Interesting, thanks Al.

Yes, thank you Alan. I wasn't aware those numbers were published. I would have thought crossbow numbers would have been higher, those numbers are actually pretty close.

[GWSmith]

I find it hard to debate how crossbow hunting will so dramatically effect one state so differently than any other.

Using Ohio's published data it seems the Vertical Bowhunters have not sufferred as much as some Anti-Crossbow hunters, in other states, would like to believe they would.

My questions are these:

What makes your state so likely to be much, if any different, than Ohio?

Why are the Vertical Bowhunters doing so well there with all of the intrusion that Crossbow hunters supposedly place on them during thier season?

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub304.pdf

This year’s vertical bow harvest of 36,347 deer represents a 24% increase over last season. For the 8th consecutive year vertical bow hunters have set harvest records and the annual increases have been enough to push the total archery harvest to record-status each year as well.

Crossbow hunters also set a record this year by harvesting 42,292 deer, nearly 10% more than last year.

[Doc]

I find it hard to debate how crossbow hunting will so dramatically effect one state so differently than any other.

Using Ohio's published data it seems the Vertical Bowhunters have not sufferred as much as some Anti-Crossbow hunters, in other states, would like to believe they would.

My questions are these:

What makes your state so likely to be much, if any different, than Ohio?

Why are the Vertical Bowhunters doing so well there with all of the intrusion that Crossbow hunters supposedly place on them during thier season?

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/Portals/9/pdf/pub304.pdf

This year’s vertical bow harvest of 36,347 deer represents a 24% increase over last season. For the 8th consecutive year vertical bow hunters have set harvest records and the annual increases have been enough to push the total archery harvest to record-status each year as well.

Crossbow hunters also set a record this year by harvesting 42,292 deer, nearly 10% more than last year.

Being a resident of NYS, a state that is currently embroiled in x-bow inclusion in bowseasons, I am going to reply with NYS in mind instead of PA. All discussions involving PA are too late......that one is a done-deal.

I have never argued against x-bows based on some imagined super impact to deer populations. The fact is that deer harvests probably are the least impacted by the choice of weapon and are really impacted by state management practices and goals. As an aside however, I do see that perception (right or wrong) as aggravating tension between bowhunters and gunhunters who already think bowhunter buck harvests are hurting their chances at buck harvests.

What I do take issue with is the mass infusion of large amounts of additional hunters into a season that requires some degree of solitude and a relatively undisturbed deer population. People of different states may have come to accept different hunting conditions. In the case of Ohio, most of the bowhunters never knew anything other than the combination archery and x-bow season. Their expectations of a quality bowhunting experience may be quite different than ours here in NYS. In fact, it probably is. So each state is unique in terms of how "crowded" bowhunting conditions are perceived. Also, I do not know the nature of Ohio's hunting land distribution. In other words if most of the archers are hunting lands that they own, lease or otherwise control. excessive numbers of participants may not be that much of a problem for them. They have the ability to control that. There are many factors in one state that may make conditions different and easier to absorb excessive numbers in the bowseason than those here in NY. It would take quite an extensive study to make an accurate comparison. One that I certainly don't have the resources to undertake.

Again, I can only look at those numbers in terms of how it MAY impact NYS bowhunting. Looking at Ohio's harvest numbers one might assume that the ratio of bowhunters to x-bow hunters is tipped slightly in favor of the x-bow hunters. I'm not sure there is a direct correlation, but I'll bet it's close. Now, if someone were to come in here in NYS and double the participants in our bow season, those of us who are relegated to hunting public lands would definitely see a negative change in the quality of the bow hunting experience.

Certainly those who have their own land through ownership or lease, or other absolute control, probably wouldn't even notice the difference. Those people could adopt a "I've got mine, the heck with you" attitude. However most of the rest of us are already experiencing regular encounters of hunt interruptions and interferences. That kind of change, of that magnitude, would definitely prove quite frustrating as any serious bowhunter realizes. Try patterning a deer when the woods are being daily tramped through by twice as many hunters as you currently experience.

As far as vertical bow harvest numbers increasing in Ohio, that is probably more a function of state management practices than weapons choices. Nearly all states have been seeing harvest increases in recent years, so it would stand to reason that all categories of harvests would increase. That does not indicate whether they would do better or worse if X-bow participants were not included in their bow season. The fact is that we will never know how the Ohio bowhunting experience would have been affected without x-bows.

Let's face it, when trying to compare one state's experiences with x-bows to another state's future potential experiences with the same situation, it is not reasonable to expect the same results or any valid direct comparison. That's kind of like saying because both Ohio and NY have whitetailed deer, we should expect the quality of deer harvested should be the same. There are immense differences in physical and cultural aspects that are completely unique to each state. I even have to admit that because Ohio has more x-bow hunters than vertical bow hunters does not necessarily mean that we would have the same situation here in NY. The ratio could be better or it could be worse. However, when it comes to my bowhunting, I am not willing to gamble needlessly on something that has the potential to damage the integrity and satisfaction of the bowhunting experience. Nor do I think it is fair for anyone else to ask me to do that, especially when there are potentially many other options for using x-bows in other time slots. Gunhunters have accepted that, Muzzleloaders have begrudgingly accepted that, and I see no reason that x-bow enthusiasts should not accept that.

Doc

[need2hunt]

Doc, have you ever shot a crossbow?