Crossbows are coming to PA

[GWSmith]

Found some interesting thoughts about posting...that may or may not apply to the "CrossBow Debate"...you decide:

DEBATE IDEAS, NOT PEOPLE - Few of us are really expressing new ideas. More often, we are just mouthpieces for traditions and lines of thought that have been handed down to us. Unfortunately, ideas need people to express them and people are clumsy. Old Joke...

Q: How do porcupines mate?

A: Carefully.

Internet posts can be like porcupines. Focus on the ideas, not the quills. When you read a post, look for the idea that is being expressed. If you respond to the barbs of personal attacks, you have lost focus.

NEVER, EVER PERSONALIZE - Work very hard to avoid making personal assertions about other posters. While it is true that no matter how hard you try, somebody somewhere will take personal offense to what you wrote, still make the attempt to keep it impersonal. In the other direction, ignore personal attacks made against you at all costs. It is a practical impossibility to defend your honor while engaged in a mud slinging contest. Besides, you will find when you meet over beer/coffee/whatever that most of the personal attacks weren't meant. People type and read without the aids of body language and feelings get hurt easily.

LET YOUR IDEAS DEFEND THEMSELVES - Be confident that the ideas you express have a power of their own that will make them capable of defending themselves. This will free you to resist the urge to convince others to join your point of view. Just as importantly, never criticise another's beliefs as inferior or illegitimate. If you can not affirm another's rights to hold their beliefs, you are not prepared to have a civil discussion with them. CS Lewis said that you defend God like you defend a lion. You unlock the cage and let the lion defend itself. If you can express an idea in a civil fashion, consider it a success. Don't measure success by convincing others. This is unachievable. Instead, remember that while the person with whom you are discussing ideas won't change his or her mind, others who read and lurk will be considering the merits of both sides. Allow the idea to defend itself to those readers.

[hyperflow]

Because i got the last coment in does that mean i win?

[Tominator]

Because i got the last coment in does that mean i win?

I crown thee winner.

Until Doc checks in, that is.

[ruttinbuc]

http://www.huntersfriend.com/crossbows/crossbow-state-regulations.htm

[Adjam5]

Good Link Mike.

I guess there are a lot of closed minded Game commissions out there:rolleyes:

Almost ALL of them are in gun season ONLY.

Thank you...Thank you Verrry much( in my best Elvis:D)

BTW, I did not reply to the topic...I replied to Mikes post;)

[Dakota]

So your telling me 35lbs is ethical to shoot a deer? personaly i would never send sombudy in the woods with a 35lbs bow to hunt deer. i personly dont coment on somthing that i never tryed

Mhm...:D:D Have you ever hunted with a 35lb. bow? I know for a fact that you can bring down an elk with a 39# longbow. My friend and the bowyer who made my longbow made a guy a 39# longbow and he took it elk hunting in Oregon. Sent a cedar shaft clean through a 600lb. cow elk. And in Minnesota I believe they lowered the minimum draw weight to 30lbs. Isn't that right, Minnesotans? Anyways, that was a little off subject, but we are all still whipping a dead horse any way you look at it.

Dakota

[ruttinbuc]

Good Link Mike.

I guess there are a lot of closed minded Game commissions out there:rolleyes:

Almost ALL of them are in gun season ONLY.

Thank you...Thank you Verrry much( in my best Elvis:D)

BTW, I did not reply to the topic...I replied to Mikes post;)

I thought you might find this interesting. Has to be a reason, say?

[Doc]

That is so contradicting, You want to be preserving for your grandchildren but you dont want to let them hunt with a weapon that they can ethicly kill a deer with at any age or gender. Rather then just sending them out there with a under poundege bow to wound deer.

A PETA representative couldn't have said it any better. In their declared war against bowhunting, I'm sure they would love to use that quote. For some reason, some people think that the only way to preserve something is to change it to the point where you can't even recognize it anymore. Obviously such people have no respect for bowhunting as a unique activity that should be preserved with its own identity and definition. It's hard to understand how anyone could think they are saving something by turning it into something completely different.

The other point that apparently was missed was the fact that I was talking about the quality of the bowhunt that requires protection and preserving. That is not done by stuffing as many gun-crossover hunters into the season as possible. I know that is a hard concept for many to grasp, especially those who like the carnival atmosphere in their hunting. To them the more full the woods is, the better. There certainly is nothing I can say that will make them understand the value of a little solitude in hunting as well as providing a possibility to pattern deer and use some other more satisfying strategy than blind luck and relying on the crowds to drive deer randomly toward your stand. When I speak of the quality of the bowhunt, I can just imagine the blank stares as the eyes glaze over in boredom and confusion.......lol.

It's too bad, but it would appear that such concerns no longer have a place in bowhunting any more. The desire for the aesthetics of the bowhunt have now been shoved aside in favor of a quest for the razzle-dazzle aspects of gunseason-like fanfare. I'm sure it is just a sign of the times. Sitting back and observing how society has changed over the decades, I am reminded of how afraid people are of being disconnected even for a moment as they walk about with the ever-present phone stuffed up to their ear. It should be no surprise that anyone talking about solitude in their hunting being a valuable feature would be looked at with complete confusion. But this is what our crossbow friends would take from bowhunting in the name of "saving" it.

Well, like I said before, I am of an age where I will probably not be effected one way or another. I just find it sad that the activity that I have been associated with for so many decades is having its identity and it's primary features dissolved to the point where the main purposes that I got involved and stayed involved will likely never be known by future participants. But then, I suppose they will never miss what they never experienced....right? Perhaps this is the way it should be......out with the old, in with the new. I probably shouldn't take it quite so personal......eh? The disrespect for culture, heritage and tradition keeps right on growing with each generation. Always has and always will. The fact is that in some ways I have been a part of it as well. I suppose it's unreasonable to expect that our bowseasons with the expectations, challenges and satisfactions wouldn't be impacted by the same forces as well.

Doc

[Nut]

Almost ALL of them are in gun season ONLY

You will be seeing that change in the future.

Ohio is a pretty cool state to be a hunter.

[wtnhunt]

On this topic, I think I kind of like Uncle Ted's philosophy of supporting others rights to hunt and use what weapon is legal. Kind of in a way parallels the argument about black rifles and varmint hunting. Some would say no one needs them(think that has been a pretty interesting topic here recently), others may argue the point for whatever reason, I kind of think some of those folks are un or mis informed.

Any way you look at it we are all hunters(bow, crossbow, crossgun, or whatever) and we should attempt to be supportive of methods we might not necessarily agree with rather than bashing those hunters who do chose to hunt by a legal method which is different than what we might. When we resort to bashing other hunters merely for their weapon choice, we all lose in my opinion.

[Adjam5]

William bashing is not allowed here, and posts doing so would be deleted. I do not see any bashing going on.

I would like to get back into this topic and continue, but I said I would back off. The dead horse theory is being applied again.

Minds in many state DNR, better than ours have pondered this topic and the conclusion of is that, ALL of them are wrong?

[Tominator]

Minds in many state DNR, better than ours have pondered this topic and the conclusion of is that, ALL of them are wrong?

Speak for yourself there chief.

[hyperflow]

A PETA representative couldn't have said it any better. In their declared war against bowhunting, I'm sure they would love to use that quote. For some reason, some people think that the only way to preserve something is to change it to the point where you can't even recognize it anymore. Obviously such people have no respect for bowhunting as a unique activity that should be preserved with its own identity and definition. It's hard to understand how anyone could think they are saving something by turning it into something completely different.

The other point that apparently was missed was the fact that I was talking about the quality of the bowhunt that requires protection and preserving. That is not done by stuffing as many gun-crossover hunters into the season as possible. I know that is a hard concept for many to grasp, especially those who like the carnival atmosphere in their hunting. To them the more full the woods is, the better. There certainly is nothing I can say that will make them understand the value of a little solitude in hunting as well as providing a possibility to pattern deer and use some other more satisfying strategy than blind luck and relying on the crowds to drive deer randomly toward your stand. When I speak of the quality of the bowhunt, I can just imagine the blank stares as the eyes glaze over in boredom and confusion.......lol.

It's too bad, but it would appear that such concerns no longer have a place in bowhunting any more. The desire for the aesthetics of the bowhunt have now been shoved aside in favor of a quest for the razzle-dazzle aspects of gunseason-like fanfare. I'm sure it is just a sign of the times. Sitting back and observing how society has changed over the decades, I am reminded of how afraid people are of being disconnected even for a moment as they walk about with the ever-present phone stuffed up to their ear. It should be no surprise that anyone talking about solitude in their hunting being a valuable feature would be looked at with complete confusion. But this is what our crossbow friends would take from bowhunting in the name of "saving" it.

Well, like I said before, I am of an age where I will probably not be effected one way or another. I just find it sad that the activity that I have been associated with for so many decades is having its identity and it's primary features dissolved to the point where the main purposes that I got involved and stayed involved will likely never be known by future participants. But then, I suppose they will never miss what they never experienced....right? Perhaps this is the way it should be......out with the old, in with the new. I probably shouldn't take it quite so personal......eh? The disrespect for culture, heritage and tradition keeps right on growing with each generation. Always has and always will. The fact is that in some ways I have been a part of it as well. I suppose it's unreasonable to expect that our bowseasons with the expectations, challenges and satisfactions wouldn't be impacted by the same forces as well.

Doc

Is it just me but all im hearing is boo hoo i might to have to let sombudy else injoy somthing i love also.

Alot more ppl in the deer woods means is you have to go a lil more out of your way, I hunt in bow season in a area that is crawling with ppl everyplace. I pride myself on being able to hunt succesful in this area. This is what separates the good hunters and the bad hunters.

But i see your really worried about it ---------><--------

[wtnhunt]

William bashing is not allowed here, and posts doing so would be deleted. I do not see any bashing going on.

Not accusing anyone of bashing here Anthony, that may not have been the best word to use for what I was trying to get across, however from some of the comments here I could see where a person using a crossbow might feel like some of the members posting here would be down on them for them making the choice they made to use a legal weapon in their state.

[hyperflow]

Good Link Mike.

I guess there are a lot of closed minded Game commissions out there:rolleyes:

Almost ALL of them are in gun season ONLY.

Thank you...Thank you Verrry much( in my best Elvis:D)

BTW, I did not reply to the topic...I replied to Mikes post;)

oh you want food for thought? heres some, you are comenting on somthing you never tryed. So how can you give your thoughts on it when you never hunted with the weapon your giving your opinion on?

You know when you have a convo with a non-hunter that say deer hunting is eazy because they see them all over on the side of the roads. They compair deer hunting with shooting cows in a field.

Well i dont need to say the rest

[hyperflow]

Not accusing anyone of bashing here Anthony, that may not have been the best word to use for what I was trying to get across, however from some of the comments here I could see where a person using a crossbow might feel like some of the members posting here would be down on them for them making the choice they made to use a legal weapon in their state.

You nailed it, its a bit frustrationg geting called a "not real archer" by another hunter that judge ppl by the weapon they use.

[Adjam5]

I'm not biting...keep stirring the pot though.

[hyperflow]

I'm not biting...keep stirring the pot though.

haha you can voice your thoughts but when i do im pot stirring makes sence

[ruttinbuc]

Some stock for the pot...

http://www.bowsite2.com/pbs/READ.CFM?ID=Crossbow_Statement_41207

Then came the gadgeteer, otherwise known as the sporting-goods dealer. He has draped the American outdoorsman with an infinity of contraptions, all offered as aids to self-reliance, hardihood, woodcraft, or marksmanship, but too often functioning as substitutes for them. Gadgets fill the pockets, they dangle from neck and belt. The overflow fills the auto-truck, and also the trailer. Each item of outdoor equipment grows lighter and often better, but the aggregate poundage becomes tonnage. The traffic in gadgets adds up to astronomical sums, which are soberly published as representing ‘the economic value of wildlife.’ But what of cultural values?

- Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac –

[Adjam5]

http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com/New_Folder/xbow.htm

[Doc]

Is it just me but all im hearing is boo hoo i might to have to let sombudy else injoy somthing i love also.

Alot more ppl in the deer woods means is you have to go a lil more out of your way, I hunt in bow season in a area that is crawling with ppl everyplace. I pride myself on being able to hunt succesful in this area. This is what separates the good hunters and the bad hunters.

But i see your really worried about it

If that's what you are hearing, then you have a problem with reading comprehension. What you should be understanding from that reply is that there is something better to hunting than the razzle-dazzle, circus atmosphere that you apparently prefer to hunt in, and it is worth preserving, at least in one of the "special seasons". And just like I said and your answer demonstrates, it is something that the newer generations are not exposed to anymore, which makes them absolutely unable to comprehend. You are the typical example. Don't be so quick to belittle those things that you are not capable of understanding.

Doc

[Doc]

On this topic, I think I kind of like Uncle Ted's philosophy of supporting others rights to hunt and use what weapon is legal. Kind of in a way parallels the argument about black rifles and varmint hunting. Some would say no one needs them(think that has been a pretty interesting topic here recently), others may argue the point for whatever reason, I kind of think some of those folks are un or mis informed.

Any way you look at it we are all hunters(bow, crossbow, crossgun, or whatever) and we should attempt to be supportive of methods we might not necessarily agree with rather than bashing those hunters who do chose to hunt by a legal method which is different than what we might. When we resort to bashing other hunters merely for their weapon choice, we all lose in my opinion.

One thing I would like to clarify is that if these things are legalized in our state, my opposition ceases. That is the point where it is appropriate to close ranks and show some solidarity to the non-hunting world. However until that has happened here in NY, I will fight the attempts at this kind of intrusion into our bow seasons for reasons already stated. Those who use crossbows as an existing legal weapon are not the target of my objections. Those who are trying to force their way into bowseasons will catch a bit of my displeasure for what I consider to be an unneccessary and inappropriate intrusion. But for those states that have already legalized crossbows, it's unfortunate, but at that point the crossbow hunters deserve our support.

We throw that word,"support" around quite a bit and I suppose it requires a bit of defining as to what I mean by support. My support does not entail wildly praising a weapon or those who use it. It does not mean that I will rush right out and buy a x-bow. It does not even mean that I will assign the same level of accomplishment and respect to a x-bow kill that I would a bow kill. By the way, even though I am a compound bow hunter, I have a whole lot more respect for someone's accomplishment when they harvest any deer with traditional equipment. So for me there is a hierarchy of challenge and accomplishment, and I will never be bashful about saying so. So, in short, support doesn't even involve saying anything complementary about a particular style or weapon. What my support in this case would mean is a simple defense against any anti-hunting groups or individuals. That's all. It's the same support that I give to guns. And where currently legal, that's the same level of support that I give crossbows and crossbow users now.

Doc

[Adjam5]

One thing I would like to clarify is that if these things are legalized in our state, my opposition ceases. That is the point where it is appropriate to close ranks and show some solidarity to the non-hunting world. However until that has happened here in NY, I will fight the attempts at this kind of intrusion into our bow seasons for reasons already stated. Those who use crossbows as an existing legal weapon are not the target of my objections. Those who are trying to force their way into bowseasons will catch a bit of my displeasure for what I consider to be an unneccessary and inappropriate intrusion. But for those states that have already legalized crossbows, it's unfortunate, but at that point the crossbow hunters deserve our support.

We throw that word,"support" around quite a bit and I suppose it requires a bit of defining as to what I mean by support. My support does not entail wildly praising a weapon or those who use it. It does not mean that I will rush right out and buy a x-bow. It does not even mean that I will assign the same level of accomplishment and respect to a x-bow kill that I would a bow kill. By the way, even though I am a compound bow hunter, I have a whole lot more respect for someone's accomplishment when they harvest any deer with traditional equipment. So for me there is a hierarchy of challenge and accomplishment, and I will never be bashful about saying so. So, in short, support doesn't even involve saying anything complementary about a particular style or weapon. What my support in this case would mean is a simple defense against any anti-hunting groups or individuals. That's all. It's the same support that I give to guns. And where currently legal, that's the same level of support that I give crossbows and crossbow users now.

Doc

Bravo... Doc...Bravo:).

AND....I know you think;)

[Tominator]

Don't be so quick to belittle those things that you are not capable of understanding.

Doc

Boy, you really walk the line when it comes to personal attacks. A clean debate has no place for a line like that. Don't be so quick to belittle a fellow member of the forum. Please.

[hyperflow]

If that's what you are hearing, then you have a problem with reading comprehension. What you should be understanding from that reply is that there is something better to hunting than the razzle-dazzle, circus atmosphere that you apparently prefer to hunt in, and it is worth preserving, at least in one of the "special seasons". And just like I said and your answer demonstrates, it is something that the newer generations are not exposed to anymore, which makes them absolutely unable to comprehend. You are the typical example. Don't be so quick to belittle those things that you are not capable of understanding.

Doc

Reading comprehension, come on give me a Break, all you been doing is crying about having to meny ppl in the deerwoods because you think every gun hunter is gonna go buy a crossbow just because you hold one like a gun. Maybe if ud just look other states that crossbows are legal and ud you would use your comen sence maybe just maybe then ud see the light. You wanted to do personal attacks!!!!

You call it razzle-dazzle, i call it ethical. I will shoot the best brodheads and arrows i can buy that will make the cleanest fastest kill. And for me thats a crossbow with mecanical BH's.

I clearly understand that you are a older gent that is so stuck in his ways and all these new improvments are just razzle-dazzle to him. Im suprised your even on the internet, thats a new generation thing

Dont worrie crossbow's are gonna be legal in your state sooner then you think. All these new compenys making them, making new jobs for ppl, soon retails stores will be pushing them to make them legal just to make more money etc.... SOON