Doc Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 Guess if this has already been passed in PA, they will find out in a few seasons how much change or difference it really makes. Maybe someone here can report back in a couple years as to how the changes reflected on harvest numbers and on new hunters/total number of hunters. I know I would be interested in seeing those numbers. Do you really think that the final results will be shown in a couple of years. It took Ohio almost 30 years for the x-bow hunters to outnumber the vertical bow hunters. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 You have no idea how arrogant and offensive that statement sounds to those of us who constantly have to work at maintaining our marksmanship, and believe me I know I am not alone in that. The bow club that I belong to is comprised of a membership (in excess of 100 members) that also have to work like **** to maintain an acceptable level of proficiency. The fact is that that's mostly what archery clubs across the country are all about. People trying to master and maintain the disciplines of archery. I would imagine that they too probably wouldn't appreciate their efforts being belittled simply in an attempt to make a pro-crossbow argument. Doc Doc, I don't really care what a archery club thinks of me or what I have to say. Acceptable levels of proficiency? Man I've been shooting bows for about 8 years now, and I practice maybe one or two weeks a year and I can shoot a group that is "Proficient" enough to kill a deer out to 40 yards. It's not hard, its actually quite simple. I'm sorry you find it so difficult. I do see your point if your talking about shooting indoor or something like that, but as for shooting in hunting, your argument is pointless. A deers vitals are much larger than an X ring. If you can hit a folgers coffee can consistently, you can kill a deer. If you have to practice year round to do that, then maybe archery isn't for you. Also, back to Chris's reference in teaching people to shoot in 20 minutes. I taught my wife to shoot her bow in maybe 10 minutes. Yes, she was shooting accurately too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted February 5, 2009 Report Share Posted February 5, 2009 The only argument that I have heard that a gunner would have a hard time using to justify his invasion of bow season is that crossbows don't go boom. Except the gunner has to cross his heart and hope to die if he takes a shot over 30 yards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Also, back to Chris's reference in teaching people to shoot in 20 minutes. I taught my wife to shoot her bow in maybe 10 minutes. Yes, she was shooting accurately too. How dare you! Liar liar, pants on fire! Har har har. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 How dare you! Liar liar, pants on fire! Har har har. Sheesh, I back a guy up and he calls me a liar.....what an DB!:mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Well, you guys finally convinced me of the need for crossbows. I can see where there would be some pretty serious shoulder injuries suffered from all that patting yourselves on the back. Some of you must be really hurting! Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 You know what?... It really doesn't matter what all of us think on this subject with each other. What matters is your local assemblyman's opinion of the issue, when they have to vote on the States Conservation board and create policy for the hunters of that state. We can discuss/argue/point/counter point all day until we are blue in the face. All we are doing is running up our post count:D. My assemblyman knows exactly how I feel on the issue. He sits on the NYS Conservation Board. I am confidant that all of the PRO crossgun people here, have done their share of contacting their politicians, and letting their voices be heard on this matter; or any matter that they feel so strongly over. Lets agree to disagree;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Well, you guys finally convinced me of the need for crossbows. I can see where there would be some pretty serious shoulder injuries suffered from all that patting yourselves on the back. Some of you must be really hurting! Doc I feel pretty good...no shoulder pain here. I am a little sore from all that practice I did last night perfecting the art of archery though.:rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 You know what?... It really doesn't matter what all of us think on this subject with each other. What matters is your local assemblyman's opinion of the issue, when they have to vote on the States Conservation board and create policy for the hunters of that state. We can discuss/argue/point/counter point all day until we are blue in the face. All we are doing is running up our post count:D. My assemblyman knows exactly how I feel on the issue. He sits on the NYS Conservation Board. I am confidant that all of the PRO crossgun people here, have done their share of contacting their politicians, and letting their voices be heard on this matter; or any matter that they feel so strongly over. Lets agree to disagree;) Agreed...Nothing personal between You and I just differing opinions;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I also agree that all the points and counterpoints have probably been made. I do want to thank you all for all the viewpoints as well as a peek into the pro-crossbow strategies and arguments. Knowing what the opposition is likely to be arguing to legislators gives me a shortcut to knowing what counterpoints to address with my own lobbying efforts. That was, afterall, the prime purpose of engaging in this thread. Like Adam5 said, we are not likely to change each other's minds at all, but that really is not what's necessary anyway is it? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Yep, you are right, Anthony. We can certainly agree to disagree. The introduction of the crossbow is quite a heated topic here in NJ. The debate here was mild compared to what I have read on other forums. The bottom line to it all, is the bottom line. I blame the hunting industry itself for ALL of it. For taking something whose basis was simple and very affordable for everyone and turning it into a very expensive undertaking. For taking something that is most challenging and hyping it to make it appear that anyone can be a "bowhunter." Look how easy the Outdoor Channel makes it out to be. The truth of the matter is if it were that easy the number of bow hunters would equal that of gun hunters, no. Enter the crossbow...."Gee, what a concept! $ince all the gizmo$ and gadget$ you can possibly $tuff into a Cabela$ archery catalog can't make it ea$ier, let us pu$h the cro$$ bow to get more people involved. Who care$ about the challenge or what bow hunting i$ all about. Look at the money there i$ to be made....hahahahahaha, we'll be rich, rich I tell you. Let$ pu$h thi$ agenda on the $tate$. We all know know they would like to $hare in the financial benefit$ in the name of money, er, um, uh, (cough cough) deer, ye$ deer... management. Every cro$$over count$!" When I think about it I was very content in the old days sitting in my Baker tree stand with stick bow in hand, bowhunting. I might have had maybe $300 tied up in everything I needed to go out and try to kill a deer. Today, I have almost that much in what the state charges for the privilege to hunt all the seasons. It is a shame that most of those out there today will never know what a simple thing it used to be. We are all guilty, to a degree, of buying into the hype. Some more than others. You can tell who they are. The guy who has to have the latest and greatest. The guy with a garage full of better stuff than anybody because so and so uses it and so and so magazine had a great review on it. My bow is better than your bow, guys. The guy who has to kill a buck regardless. The same guy who thought of what his peers would think as the big buck appears, but will never understand why he missed. The guy who will never have the discipline to be a good bowhunter regardless of what is in his hand. The same guy the hunting industry is feeding off of... Edited February 6, 2009 by ruttinbuc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Some questions about crossbows and their influence on hunter's choices. First of all, does your state allow for a deer to be taken during each season? That would be a buck during archery and rifle/shotgun and muzzle loader for a total of three buck. This does not include permits that you must apply for. If taking another buck is a possible then how many gun hunters do you think would take up a crossbow if allowed during archery? For the Ohio boys, if you could only shoot one deer, be it buck or doe, how many of the crossbow hunters do you think would give up archery season? Does anyone think that allowing crossbows during archery season will actually increase hunter numbers that much or will it just cause a cross over of rifle hunters seeking another opportunity to kill another buck/deer? Here in Montana you do not get another deer tag to go with your bow stamp and, to the best of my knowledge, you can only shoot one deer per year unless you apply for (and draw) special antlerless tags. The only advantage to archery season is that you get to hunt during the elk rut in September, but even then rifle hunters can venture into the Bob Marshall Wilderness and hunt elk with a rifle during September. If you make it easy enough and give an incentive (another tag), they will come, but they were probably hunters already. More time in the woods maybe, but you do not have to be hunting to spend time in the woods. One more question. If you put a silencer on a firearm and rendered it a short range weapon via load restrictions, would it also be okay during quiet season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 If you can't find my argument let me know...Reg set #8 http://www.nj.gov/dep/fgw/pdf/2008/regsets08-09.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 So I'm assuming that everyone that opposes the crossbow, also opposes the use of a drawlock for the compound bow ,, right ?? I just can't figure out how most of you make the leap from a firearm to a archery crossbow ... :confused: My father-in-law that the crossbow was going to be a piece of cake also ... until he found that it took practice to find his consistent anchor point ( yep, you need to have a anchor point with the crossbow ) broadhead flight is very different from setup to setup, just like a compound .. and let's not forget just how heavy and cumbersome they are compared to the compounds of today .. :rolleyes: Now lets get to the price of a good (notice I say good ) you are looking at the price of a decent rifle ,, just how many hunters are going to be willing to go out and drop a GRAND on a top quality setup just to shoot one more deer in many states ... ??? ... One thing I've seen with crossbows and their down fall that I can tell, is that out past 25 - 30 yards they really suck in the accuracy department .. ;) So anyone out there thinking that they are going to be this instant super human archer with a crossbow, might want to go and give one a whirl or two first .. :rolleyes: I will say this ... I'll stick with my Katera as long as I can ,, but won't have any problems sharing my woods with a crossbow hunter, especially if it keeps my dad hunting with me just that much longer ... But understand this ... I respect every opinion that has been stated in here, because in the end we are all hunters by heart ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Yes, I do oppose the drawlock for non-disabled archery hunters. I will say that your experience with shooting a crossbow is considerably different than mine. As to the anchor point, there is no such thing with a cross bow as the anchor point is incorporated into the stock. Yes, much like a rifle, if you do not hold the stock the same way each time the point of impact will change. Different loads in a rifle will result in varying accuracy as will different broadheads when shooting a crossbow. As for weight, there are crossbows that weigh little more than many compounds loaded down with all the accessories. My first experience shooting a crossbow resulted in shooting clothespins off a clothes line at 30 yards after a few practice shots at a target. After 40+ years of shooting a vertical bow I am hard pressed to hit a target that size at that distance. When it comes to cost there are people who pay $10,000.00+ to buy an ATV just to ride 1/4 mile to their stand because they are too lazy to walk. I am sure many rifle hunters would gladly pay $1.000.00+ to get an extra chance to kill another deer. I will stick to my thoughts that while a crossbow and a compound/recurve/longbow use the same means of propulsion and are short range weapons, shooting a crossbow is like shooting a rifle. Sharing the hunting woods with true archery hunters is one thing and sharing those same woods with an opportunist is quite another. My final thoughts on this is that archery and archery hunting is a discipline that if given a chance to be watered down by opportunist will ultimately suffer a loss of tradition. To some, this tradition means little or nothing and grabbing a piece of the pie means everything. Most who would grab a crossbow if and when legal, are opportunist and choose a crossbow simply because it is easier. I guess the final answer will be in the hands of the people who make the laws and how they are influenced by the different points of view. If it is, or becomes, legal in your state I hope your hunting experience has not, or will not be, diminished. Enjoying the hunt and the experience is what it is really all about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Great points there Elkaholic ...great points:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 As to the anchor point, there is no such thing with a cross bow as the anchor point is incorporated into the stock. Yes, much like a rifle, if you do not hold the stock the same way each time the point of impact will change. And this isn't considered an anchor point ?? .. :confused: Funny thing is I can take my .270 and shoot it right or left handed and don't have to concentrate on where my stock is placed to hit my target consistantly .. As for weight, there are crossbows that weigh little more than many compounds loaded down with all the accessories. The average weight (without accessories) seems to be around 9.5 - 12 lbs for most modern crossbows from what I can reference ... That to me would make crossbows anywhere from 3 -5 lbs heavier than the loaded modern compound bow ... even heavier if you look at the NEW Mathews and Hoyt line ... When it comes to cost there are people who pay $10,000.00+ to buy an ATV just to ride 1/4 mile to their stand because they are too lazy to walk. I am sure many rifle hunters would gladly pay $1.000.00+ to get an extra chance to kill another deer. I beg to differ with this reference ,,, there's far more uses for that ATV than there is for a couple weeks of crossbow hunting .. :rolleyes: My first experience shooting a crossbow resulted in shooting clothespins off a clothes line at 30 yards after a few practice shots at a target. Not calling you a liar on this one, but I'd have to see this one with my very own 2 eye's .. Still can't believe you folks think this weapon falls in the classification of a rifle ... I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't trade in that long range rifle for a crossbow if it came down to that ... let's be real with these comparisons here ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 Still can't believe you folks think this weapon falls in the classification of a rifle ... I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't trade in that long range rifle for a crossbow if it came down to that ... let's be real with these comparisons here ... It's not a rifle and it sure is not a bow inspite of having that word incorporated into its name. It is some kind of cross-breed between the two. And, historically that is exactly the function that the weapon served, a bridge between bows and guns. I will say though, that other than ballistics, the comparison between a crossbow and a gun is not really that far off. However, perception has a way of becoming reality. If the weapon is perceived as being gun-like, it will be most attractive to gunhunters wishing to shortcut their way into bowseasons. It's like I have said many times before, this whole x-bow push is not about the weapon, it's about the season. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 For the Ohio boys, if you could only shoot one deer, be it buck or doe, how many of the crossbow hunters do you think would give up archery season? Probably a lot and go back to guns. That's just a guess though. In Ohio, it depends on where you hunt that dictates your limit of deer, not the weapon. If you want to shoot all 6 of your deer with a gun, you can, same with a bow, crossbow or ML. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperflow Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 im amazed howmeny ppl are miss informed on crossbows. They are FAR from a rifle, i find they are a more ethical way of hunting. For 1 there is less shooter error with a crossbow that will equal less wounded deer. 2 a crossbow does not shoot any farther. I shoot a 225lbs exomax excalibur crossbow and i will not shoot a deer over 40 yards. The ONLY diffrence with the 2 is that a crossbow you need to do less movment in stand, apart from that shooting a deer with a crossbow is just as hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Here we go again ... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruttinbuc Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Yep, here we go again....no misinformation here however! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 I must confess...here at Realtree we seem to have handled this topic quite civil if I might add. I was on another forum where name calling and questioning others skill was the norm. I am no longer a contributor of that forum. I never thought I would welcome moderation, but there you go. Regardless of where one stands on the crossgun issue( yeah I had to go there:p), we have handled this discussion quite civil. Congrats to all involved, even the pot stirrers:D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 ....we have handled this discussion quite civil.... :DOh Big Deal....We wore a Tie:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 Crossbow = another weapon for me to choose from to kill my dinner with .. Of course being here in Vermont I will have to have a special crossbow license in order to legally use one in a hunting season .. Hey, Gary you link that horse is tenderized enough for steaks ?? ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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