Crossbows are coming to PA

[Doc]

By the way, no crossbows will be used on my land, not because of any other reason than we haven't found one yet we can't outshoot with the compound.

See, that is why it's so easy to develop some pretty grand sounding attitudes about the crossbow issue. I suspect that a lot of pro-crossbow people are also in the situation where they own or in some fashion control the land on which they hunt. They will never have to experience any negative consequences of their generosity with the state's bow season because they can dictate what weapons and how many hunters are on their land. As far as what the hunting quality turns out to be for those relegated to hunting public lands, they could care less. They've got theirs and the heck with the rest of us. It's not really even an issue for them so they can sound as generous as they want. The fact is that when things start getting a bit too crazy out there, they will simply curtail the access.

Doc

[Doc]

i injoy the hunt not the weapon.

If that were the case, we would not be having this crossbow discussion.

Doc

[Doc]

There may well have been a flood of crossbow hunters taking to the woods, but looking at the numbers, it appears to me that they have not been that successful, at least not here in my state in the county I hunt. Keep in mind too that some of those same hunters using crossbow may well be handicapped folks that were using crossbows prior to crossbows being made to be included in our archery seasons.

I do not think that there will be an immediate rush to crossbows right after they are shoved into bow seasons. If you look at Ohio, that is not the way it happened there. It was a slow growth over more than 30 years until it has gotten to the ratio that it's at now. My arguments are not short term. I doubt that even if crossbows were allowed in our bowseason today, that I would see that much of a change in the few years that I have left in the sport. My only concern is that the bowhunters in generations after me should be able to experience the same quality of bowhunting experience as I have. The bow is a weapon that I have been fixated on for a great many decades now, and bow season has always been defined by "bows" with all the special challenges that come with them. So, I am not interested in just how far we can go in transforming this season into an "any-weapon" season. There are already those who claim we have gone too far with bastardizing bow seasons with the compounds. Maybe they are right, I don't know. That's not my opinion, but I probably wouldn't argue too long with them. So today there are those who are opportunists and are trying to use the excuse of compounds to justify further pollution of bowhunting. It's a flawed comparison, but that doesn't stop people from using that argument. And it is true that the compound was just another step in the march toward the next pollutant in the bowseason. Had the compound not come along, we most likely would not be having this crossbow discussion. It's not such a great stretch to assume that once crossbows are accepted in bow seasons, that someone will come up with the idea of a "primitive weapons season" and try to lump in muzzleloaders. Each step is a preparation for the next.

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned, this crossbow issue is the first real departure from bowseason consisting only of bows. I also see it as being a weapon that will change the bowhunting experience into something completely different (not necessarily better) over time. It is that unique bowhunting experience that I am interested in preserving for my grandchildren and beyond. And seeing just how many different weapons you can cram into it is not a way of preserving it, but rather a way of destroying it. I don't want to see bowhunters become guests inside what used to be their own identity. I think it is a tradition worthy of protecting not diluting.

Doc

[hyperflow]

If that were the case, we would not be having this crossbow discussion.

Doc

Of coures thats the exactly the case, The reason we are having this discussion is because i some ppl dont care if you shoot a x-bow or a compound.

Its a bit frustrating that another hunter can say i shouldn;t be hunting with a x-bow and that they shouldn;t be allowed. I pesonaly think this is just a very closed minded person.

[Tominator]

Its a bit frustrating that another hunter can say i shouldn;t be hunting with a x-bow and that they shouldn;t be allowed. I pesonaly think this is just a very closed minded person.

Ya think?

[hyperflow]

I do not think that there will be an immediate rush to crossbows right after they are shoved into bow seasons. If you look at Ohio, that is not the way it happened there. It was a slow growth over more than 30 years until it has gotten to the ratio that it's at now. My arguments are not short term. I doubt that even if crossbows were allowed in our bowseason today, that I would see that much of a change in the few years that I have left in the sport. My only concern is that the bowhunters in generations after me should be able to experience the same quality of bowhunting experience as I have. The bow is a weapon that I have been fixated on for a great many decades now, and bow season has always been defined by "bows" with all the special challenges that come with them. So, I am not interested in just how far we can go in transforming this season into an "any-weapon" season. There are already those who claim we have gone too far with bastardizing bow seasons with the compounds. Maybe they are right, I don't know. That's not my opinion, but I probably wouldn't argue too long with them. So today there are those who are opportunists and are trying to use the excuse of compounds to justify further pollution of bowhunting. It's a flawed comparison, but that doesn't stop people from using that argument. And it is true that the compound was just another step in the march toward the next pollutant in the bowseason. Had the compound not come along, we most likely would not be having this crossbow discussion. It's not such a great stretch to assume that once crossbows are accepted in bow seasons, that someone will come up with the idea of a "primitive weapons season" and try to lump in muzzleloaders. Each step is a preparation for the next.

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned, this crossbow issue is the first real departure from bowseason consisting only of bows. I also see it as being a weapon that will change the bowhunting experience into something completely different (not necessarily better) over time. It is that unique bowhunting experience that I am interested in preserving for my grandchildren and beyond. And seeing just how many different weapons you can cram into it is not a way of preserving it, but rather a way of destroying it. I don't want to see bowhunters become guests inside what used to be their own identity. I think it is a tradition worthy of protecting not diluting.

Doc

That is so contradicting, You want to be preserving for your grandchildren but you dont want to let them hunt with a weapon that they can ethicly kill a deer with at any age or gender. Rather then just sending them out there with a under poundege bow to wound deer.

I personaly think this is one of the big reason there is less and less younger youth hunters joining the sport. For a example some girls will just never have the strenght to pull back a bow or a boy that is very small. Insted of waiting tell they have the stenght to pull that bow back put a x-bow in there hands and let them injoy the sport we love so much. Because once they kill that first deer they are hooked for life.

They say a child that hunts at a young age have very lil odds that they will get into drugs or theft.

I personaly think this is very true, I was put into a deer stand at a very young age with a x-bow and shot my first deer at a very young age and when i was younger all my friends we;re into drugs, On weekends all my buddys would go to partys and me i had nothing else on my mind but going to deer camp.

Edited February 17, 2009 by hyperflow

[Adjam5]

Ya think?

Yeah I DO THINK, and so does Doc ...maybe not the same as you, but we do think and made our points without pot stirring.

Sheesh, who is being closed minded here?

Man... this world would be super boring if we all were alike:rolleyes:.

It might be time to back off this thread. One cannot have opinions without being called close minded.

[hyperflow]

Yeah I DO THINK, and so does Doc ...maybe not the same as you, but we do think and made our points without pot stirring.

Sheesh, who is being closed minded here?

Man... this world would be super boring if we all were alike:rolleyes:.

It might be time to back off this thread. One cannot have opinions without being called close minded.

Sheesh one cannot have a opinion without being called a pot stirer

[Adjam5]

That is so contradicting, You want to be preserving for your grandchildren but you dont want to let them hunt with a weapon that they can ethicly kill a deer with at any age or gender. Rather then just sending them out there with a under poundege bow to wound deer.

I personaly think this is one of the big reason there is less and less younger youth hunters joining the sport. For a example some girls will just never have the strenght to pull back a bow or a boy that is very small. Insted of waiting tell they have the stenght to pull that bow back put a x-bow in there hands and let them injoy the sport we love so much. Because once they kill that first deer they are hooked for life.

They say a child that hunts at a young age have very lil odds that they will get into drugs or theft.

I personaly think this is very true, I was put into a deer stand at a very young age with a x-bow and shot my first deer at a very young age and when i was younger all my friends we;re into drugs, On weekends all my buddys would go to partys and me i had nothing else on my mind but going to deer camp.

That is why many states have minimum poundage for archery equipment. So there are ethical clean kills. 35lbs in NY. My sons 88lb, 19 year old girlfriend can pull back a 35lb bow, so there goes that theory.

Less hunters are joining the sport because of a media/school systems(at least here in NY) that demonizes hunting and the killing of any animal or even owning weapons. Many parents have to hold 2 jobs, and have less time to go hunting, let alone take kids afield. Not to mention the high cost of equipment/licenses these days.

My 3 sons have been taken afield since before they could walk, I carried them;), taught them to shoot a BOW and I believe they will be hunters for life.

Many do not have the discipline to become proper archers, so enter the crossbow. You cannot argue that it is not easier than shooting a proper bow. That is why at such a young age YOU were able to do it.

Look, maybe the simple fact that the states or areas we grew up in, accepted certain type weapons; have made us bias in one way or another. I enjoy the challenge of using a bow that is drawn in the presence of the animal. I never said the crossgun(sorry Luke) shouldn't be allowed. I have maintained the position that it should be allowed for older, hurt hunters and vets to hunt with anytime anywhere any season (read previous posts). Even with the compound arguement that was raised by traditional hunters when the inclusion of compounds entered the fracas. It is still a BOW drawn in the presence of the animal, and on that point alone is my basis why the cross...errr...bow(for you Luke:D) should NOT be allowed in archery season for hunters that are not hurt or injured and apparently, my state Conservation Dept thinks the same way.

Archers in NYS share the early archery season with small game hunters, and guns are going off, while you are on stand trying to arrow a deer. How much harder can it get?

Or shall I say... How much easier do you want it? Where is the challenge? Or is it just about ease of the kill and not the hunt?

Edited February 17, 2009 by Adjam5

[hyperflow]

That is why many states have minimum poundage for archery equipment. So there are ethical clean kills. 35lbs in NY. My sons 88lb, 19 year old girlfriend can pull back a 35lb bow, so there goes that theory.

Less hunters are joining the sport because of a media/school systems(at least here in NY) that demonizes hunting and the killing of any animal or even owning weapons. Many parents have to hold 2 jobs, and have less time to go hunting, let alone take kids afield. Not to mention the high cost of equipment/licenses these days.

My 3 sons have been taken afield since before they could walk, I carried them;), taught them to shoot a BOW and I believe they will be hunters for life.

Many do not have the discipline to become proper archers, so enter the crossbow. You cannot argue that it is not easier than shooting a proper bow. That is why at such a young age YOU were able to do it.

Look, maybe the simple fact that the states or areas we grew up in, accepted certain type weapons; have made us bias in one way or another. I enjoy the challenge of using a bow that is drawn in the presence of the animal. I never said the crossgun(sorry Luke) shouldn't be allowed. I have maintained the position that it should be allowed for older, hurt hunters and vets to hunt with anytime anywhere any season (read previous posts). Even with the compound arguement that was raised by traditional hunters when the inclusion of compounds entered the fracas. It is still a BOW drawn in the presence of the animal, and on that point alone is my basis why the cross...errr...bow(for you Luke:D) should NOT be allowed in archery season for hunters that are not hurt or injured and apparently, my state Conservation Dept thinks the same way.

Archers in NYS share the early archery season with small game hunters, and guns are going off, while you are on stand trying to arrow a deer. How much harder can it get?

Or shall I say... How much easier do you want it? Where is the challenge? Or is it just about ease of the kill and not the hunt?

So your telling me 35lbs is ethical to shoot a deer? personaly i would never send sombudy in the woods with a 35lbs bow to hunt deer.

Because sombudy shoots a crossBOW there not a real archery hunter? wow, I can;t even coment on that without saying somthing rude.

Your last coment thats another thing that frustraters me, Because your deer hunting on state land that means nobudy else should be hunting a diffrent animal then you? Nobudy should be driving atv's on state land when your hunting also i bet?

EAZY? i personly dont coment on somthing that i never tryed

[wtnhunt]

Or shall I say... How much easier do you want it? Where is the challenge? Or is it just about ease of the kill and not the hunt?

Still got to get close right Anthony? Part of the challenge is getting deer close and getting in position for the shot whatever weapon you are using. At least it is to me and in that regard I do believe there could a bit more of a challenge to crossbow hunting than some are making it out here. For crying out loud, how many times have you raised a rifle with a deer under you only to get busted. I know have, matter of fact, the season before last on the youth hunt my oldest daughter found out real quick that raising a rifle can spook a deer and her buck she was going to shoot was gone before she could ever get on him.

I do not think that there will be an immediate rush to crossbows right after they are shoved into bow seasons. If you look at Ohio, that is not the way it happened there. It was a slow growth over more than 30 years until it has gotten to the ratio that it's at now. My arguments are not short term. I doubt that even if crossbows were allowed in our bowseason today, that I would see that much of a change in the few years that I have left in the sport. My only concern is that the bowhunters in generations after me should be able to experience the same quality of bowhunting experience as I have. The bow is a weapon that I have been fixated on for a great many decades now, and bow season has always been defined by "bows" with all the special challenges that come with them. So, I am not interested in just how far we can go in transforming this season into an "any-weapon" season. There are already those who claim we have gone too far with bastardizing bow seasons with the compounds. Maybe they are right, I don't know. That's not my opinion, but I probably wouldn't argue too long with them. So today there are those who are opportunists and are trying to use the excuse of compounds to justify further pollution of bowhunting. It's a flawed comparison, but that doesn't stop people from using that argument. And it is true that the compound was just another step in the march toward the next pollutant in the bowseason. Had the compound not come along, we most likely would not be having this crossbow discussion. It's not such a great stretch to assume that once crossbows are accepted in bow seasons, that someone will come up with the idea of a "primitive weapons season" and try to lump in muzzleloaders. Each step is a preparation for the next.

Who says bowhunters won't be able to continue as you do Doc? Just because a weapon is allowed does not mean you have to use it or anyone else in the future will have to use it. Sounds like all the more reason to me to get out and help promote archery if you are so concerned; getting kids involved, if they learn to shoot with recurves or compounds and they enjoy it, they will likely go back to that when it comes time to hunt. Most archers will agree that they love to shoot their bows, whether it be 3D, or targets, or hunting; some might agree that gaining kids interest is what will keep the sport alive for decades more. In places where these type changes have already been made, what good does it really do to bash hunters who are using crossbows or to make derogatory comments that lead to further divide us as hunters? Really does no one any good in my opinion.

Our seasons here open in late Sept with archery, a person if they chose to do so could hunt this state for the duration of our seasons(with the exception of the youth hunt weekend) on into January with the most primitive stick and string if that was how they wanted to hunt. Totally their choice. No one is forcing anything on anyone, it is an option which some may chose. This idea that there is a conversion for all hunters to conform really floors me. Sure some more may pick up a crossbow to get out, that just means a few more hunters in the woods, a few more license sold, a little more support on our side. I really do not see a negative to that.

Since you brought up ml'ers, some folks may chose to the hunt ml season with a flintlock and a ball with iron sights, that is their option during our ml seasons, others may like to take advantage of technology and use the latest and greatest ml'ers with sabots and rangefinding ballistic compensating scopes. Is it wrong one way or the other, really not my place to say, but I will say this, so long as it is legal and the hunter is happy with themself and how they take their deer, I will not criticze them. I do not see this state ever changing the archery season to a primitve weapon season allowing for ml'ers to be included.

On Ohio, when did Ohio implement their inclusion of crossbows anyway? Thought someone else posted that they have been allowed forever.

[Tominator]

Yeah I DO THINK, and so does Doc ...maybe not the same as you, but we do think and made our points without pot stirring.

Sheesh, who is being closed minded here?

Man... this world would be super boring if we all were alike:rolleyes:.

It might be time to back off this thread. One cannot have opinions without being called close minded.

Not you. Doc.

**notice I used this guy -----> and then this guy ------->

Don't read into my comments too much. Make no mistake, I want to be known as a pot stirrer, not close minded.

And, just in case anyone forgot, and wants to whip this dead horse even more, for those of you worried about crossbows coming to your hunting locales, don't worry, it's not that big of a deal.

[Adjam5]

So your telling me 35lbs is ethical to shoot a deer? personaly i would never send sombudy in the woods with a 35lbs bow to hunt deer.

Because sombudy shoots a crossBOW there not a real archery hunter? wow, I can;t even coment on that without saying somthing rude.

Your last coment thats another thing that frustraters me, Because your deer hunting on state land that means nobudy else should be hunting a diffrent animal then you? Nobudy should be driving atv's on state land when your hunting also i bet?

EAZY? i personly dont coment on somthing that i never tryed

#1) That is the law in NYS 35lbs minimum draw weight. I don't make the laws, I follow them.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8305.html

#2) ATV's on state land are also against the law in NYS. All motorized vehicles are restricted to access roads posted as motor vehicle trails. Off road use of motorized vehicles, such as ATVs, trail bikes and four-wheel drives is not allowed, except where specifically permitted by signs, posted notice or by DEC permit.

#3) How is point and shoot archery? That is what gun hunters do. Projectile has no meaning here, there are guns that shoot arrows.

#4) I never said anyone shouldn't hunt at the same time as I do. I stated that bowhunters in NYS have to compete with guns going off at the same time that the early archery season is underway. That makes it harder when the spooking of gunshots have educated animals.

The second shot I took out of a crossbow was dead on. I have never fired one until that fateful day at Gander Mtn archery range 4 years ago. It took me 2 shots to hit the bullseye at 25 yards. That is a challenge or ease of use?

You still have not addressed the not having to draw in the presence of the animal. That alone is why crossbows should not and are not in the archery seasons here in NY. There will be crossover gun hunters, since they are familiar with point and shoot. If they were archers or wanted to be, they would have picked up a bow and became familiar with the disciplines of drawing with the animal in sight, anchor points, choosing the right pin, holding back the draw weight and letting down if the shot is not taken. Not just clicking the safety back on and resting the crossbow back on the rail/support of the stand or blind. Like gun hunters do.

I have made my points over and over and ya know what...

This is what we are doing...

Lets agree to disagree.

[hyperflow]

#1) That is the law in NYS 35lbs minimum draw weight. I don't make the laws, I follow them.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/8305.html

#2) ATV's on state land are also against the law in NYS. All motorized vehicles are restricted to access roads posted as motor vehicle trails. Off road use of motorized vehicles, such as ATVs, trail bikes and four-wheel drives is not allowed, except where specifically permitted by signs, posted notice or by DEC permit.

#3) How is point and shoot archery? That is what gun hunters do. Projectile has no meaning here, there are guns that shoot arrows.

#4) I never said anyone shouldn't hunt at the same time as I do. I stated that bowhunters in NYS have to compete with guns going off at the same time that the early archery season is underway. That makes it harder when the spooking of gunshots have educated animals.

The second shot I took out of a crossbow was dead on. I have never fired one until that fateful day at Gander Mtn archery range 4 years ago. It took me 2 shots to hit the bullseye at 25 yards. That is a challenge or ease of use?

You still have not addressed the not having to draw in the presence of the animal. That alone is why crossbows should not and are not in the archery seasons here in NY. There will be crossover gun hunters, since they are familiar with point and shoot. If they were archers or wanted to be, they would have picked up a bow and became familiar with the disciplines of drawing with the animal in sight, anchor points, choosing the right pin, holding back the draw weight and letting down if the shot is not taken. Not just clicking the safety back on and resting the crossbow back on the rail/support of the stand or blind. Like gun hunters do.

I have made my points over and over and ya know what...

This is what we are doing...

Lets agree to disagree.

Just because its legal it dosn;t mean its a ethical way of hunting.

Yeah your right a crossbow is just like a gun, we just seat that thing on a rail and wait for the deer to come to the exact spot we need it and just press that triger, Dont even need to move , Also when you hunt with a crossbow you dont smell anymore so the deer have no problems geting close to you.

[Adjam5]

You are not sticking to the issues...you have gone off on another topic as scent control.

35lb draw law says it is ethical. What Game dept will let hunters use a weapon not capable of killing a deer?

Answer these.

Do you have to draw in the presence of the animal?

Do you have to let down if the shot is not taken?

Do you have to choose a yardage pin?

Is there less movement with a crossbow, than that of a archer?

How much discipline is needed to lay on the crosshairs and pull a trigger with a magnified scope? On that one, scoped gun hunters do miss, but usually at far greater ranges, more than 40yards; you still have to make the shot.

Granted to all hunters...being able to get close,IF you are stalking. Most hunt from trees today or blinds in a ambush fashion. All hunters need to play the wind regardless of weapon. Not a factor in this discussion.

Stick with the issues I have raised, and I will gladly debate this topic civilly.

[Curdog]

Alabama had its first crossbow legal bow season this fall. I never saw anyone even hunting with one.

[hyperflow]

You are not sticking to the issues...you have gone off on another topic as scent control.

35lb draw law says it is ethical. What Game dept will let hunters use a weapon not capable of killing a deer?

Answer these.

Do you have to draw in the presence of the animal?

Do you have to let down if the shot is not taken?

Do you have to choose a yardage pin?

Is there less movement with a crossbow, than that of a archer?

How much discipline is needed to lay on the crosshairs and pull a trigger with a magnified scope? On that one, scoped gun hunters do miss, but usually at far greater ranges, more than 40yards; you still have to make the shot.

Granted to all hunters...being able to get close,IF you are stalking. Most hunt from trees today or blinds in a ambush fashion. All hunters need to play the wind regardless of weapon. Not a factor in this discussion.

Stick with the issues I have raised, and I will gladly debate this topic civilly.

1: i have to lift the big heavy ackward crossbow in a pressence of a deer, and also remove the safty (some crossbows very noicy)

2 : Yes i have to let down the crossbow, try holding a crossbow with all the weight of the limes at the front end of the bow for a long time. GOOD LUCK

3 : Yes crossbows have yardege crossairs built into the scope, or some ppl use a peepsight, so its not just point and shoot you have to range your animal and pick your distence.

4: If you shoot seating down there is barly any movment diffrence betwin the 2. Unless you hold your crossbow in your hands in the ready hold, there is alot more movment to be done with a crossbow IMHO

[ruttinbuc]

I respectfully request that this thread be closed. There really is no reason for continuing this debate. It has become a rehash of the same argument. No one is going to change my mind on the issue. I will come to a conclusion on the effect of crossbows when and if they are allowed into the traditional archery seasons here in NJ.

[Adjam5]

I respectfully request that this thread be closed. There really is no reason for continuing this debate. It has become a rehash of the same argument. No one is going to change my mind on the issue. I will come to a conclusion on the effect of crossbows when and if they are allowed into the traditional archery seasons here in NJ.

Mike, I will honor your request and stop replying to this thread.

Over and OUT!

[Tominator]

I respectfully request that this thread be closed. There really is no reason for continuing this debate. It has become a rehash of the same argument. No one is going to change my mind on the issue. I will come to a conclusion on the effect of crossbows when and if they are allowed into the traditional archery seasons here in NJ.

Doc will never let it go Mike, lol.

------><------

[Ohiobucks]

I respectfully request that this thread remain open. There really is numerous reasons for continuing this debate. True, it has become a rehash of the same argument. No one is going to change anybody's mind on the issue. People will have to come to a conclusion on the effect of crossbows when and if they are allowed into the traditional archery seasons in their respective state. But until then, this thread has and should continue to provided me and others many laughs. :D Y'all are just tooo serious....

[ruttinbuc]

You have not seen serious yet....

[ruttinbuc]

[VermontHunter]

WOW !! Has this thread exploded ... :eek:

[ruttinbuc]

Nah, it is just at a low boil, Luke.....