LifeNRA Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Funny, everybody is getting laid off left and right. When do you think this downhill slide started? I got the idea, lets go back when clinton was in office! ONE WORD!!! NAFTA!!! :mad: The dems started this, Bush didn't help when he started the same with mexico! I say get rid of NAFTA, and get our jobs back here where they BELONG!!! If we were all working like before this STUPID program was even started, I sure we would have such a high un-employment right now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PotashRLS Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 The irony, though scarey, is that folks flippin burgers are happy just to be working. Not good at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodnottygy Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I actually just started a thread "Do remeber when Ross Perot"..... on this very subject today. We are on the same wavelength. Read it and weep! NAFTA has started that giant sucking sound of disapearing American jobs that Perot said was going to happen with NAFTA. Our politicians have sold us out and we are on our way to being a 3d world country, if things don't turn around! All politicians have wanted this, both Democrats and Republicans! NAFTA and World trade stinks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 i think all our wasted spending and lack of use of our natural resources is more to blame than nafta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeNRA Posted January 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 i think all our wasted spending and lack of use of our natural resources is more to blame than nafta. Tell that to the steel workers, clothing manufactures, and thousands of other jobs that lost lost due to outsourcing! I work in the printing industry. All the reps that come in here are saying the same thing! Too many jobs going over seas. Ill bet that most of you don't even know this! I had an xray a few months back, the docs said we will have to wait about 30 minutes for results. I said why? They told me that the xrays are being read in Australia!!! YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!! They fax them over there, read them, then send them back! A lot of hospitals are switching to this according to them! Have you been in walmart lately? Go see where all the products are being made! Yes we do spend a lot, and waste a lot! But you got to have a job in order to spend anything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodnottygy Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Politicians from both sides embraced NAFTA! It and world trade ruined our economy! Yet, paid lobbyist wanted it, not the citizens! So be it! I am sick of politicians doing what they want to, instead of what the citizens want. Taxation without representation! I can name numerous manufacturing jobs sent overseas and to Mexico! Who is going to buy those Levis and Stetson hats if noone has a job! They were big manufacturers from my area that left. I voted for Ross Perot and he knew this was going to happen! All the politicians wanted it and sold us out! Wake up people, both repubicans and democrats are to blame... so quit pointing fingers and vote for someone who is not bought and paid for before they enter office! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Politicians from both sides embraced NAFTA! It and world trade ruined our economy! Yet, paid lobbyist wanted it, not the citizens! So be it! I am sick of politicians doing what they want to, instead of what the citizens want. Taxation without representation! I can name numerous manufacturing jobs sent overseas and to Mexico! Who is going to buy those Levis and Stetson hats if noone has a job! They were big manufacturers from my area that left. I voted for Ross Perot and he knew this was going to happen! All the politicians wanted it and sold us out! Wake up people, both repubicans and democrats are to blame... so quit pointing fingers and vote for someone who is not bought and paid for before they enter office! Unfortunate that in this world we live in today that those who you refer to who are not bought are in the very rare minority and in most cases have no real chance and only pull votes away from the lessers of evils we have to choose from. Sometimes voting outside the two main parties does no good for anyone. Ross Perot had some interesting ideas, however he probably did not help this country with his run and even with knowing this was going to happen, who is to say that had he gotten in office that he would have done anything that would have us in any different situation. After all the President while he does have a role, cannot be effective without some cooperation from the house and senate and the two main parties who form them. How effective might Ross have really been able to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodnottygy Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I agree that he (Perot) could not have done much without some cooperation from congress and the senate. I am a believer that our congress and senators are given gifts by lobbiests. It does have an impact on their decision making and policies. Companies use ex-politicians as paid lobbiests. So... to me, it looks like, hey, if you work for me as a politician, if you are not re-elected... I have a job for you! That is being bought and paid for. I know former politicians that are hired as "consultants" after bending over backwards for a big business, going against their constituants. That, my friend, is being bought and paid for.... and is the rule, not the exception.... but that is your opinion (and I respect it) and this one is mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I agree that he (Perot) could not have done much without some cooperation from congress and the senate. I am a believer that our congress and senators are given gifts by lobbiests. It does have an impact on their decision making and policies. Companies use ex-politicians as paid lobbiests. So... to me, it looks like, hey, if you work for me as a politician, if you are not re-elected... I have a job for you! That is being bought and paid for. I know former politicians that are hired as "consultants" after bending over backwards for a big business, going against their constituants. That, my friend, is being bought and paid for.... and is the rule, not the exception.... but that is your opinion (and I respect it) and this one is mine. Don't think I ever disagreed with what you said about politicans being bought. Think I said those who are not bought are in the very rare minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 One of the dirty little secrets that you'll NEVER hear a politician admit to, is the fact that NAFTA, and other trade agreements are one of the best deterrents to war that exist. It's virtually unheard of for two countries that have significant amounts of commerce flowing between them, to resort to armed conflict to settle disagreements. And slightly off topic, but another never mentioned dirty little secret is that large armies need occasional acts of actual combat to keep themselves ready. That's why you see actions like Grenada, Panama, and Haiti. During extended times of "peace," these serve to keep our military forces sharp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKYhunter Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 One of the dirty little secrets that you'll NEVER hear a politician admit to, is the fact that NAFTA, and other trade agreements are one of the best deterrents to war that exist. It's virtually unheard of for two countries that have significant amounts of commerce flowing between them, to resort to armed conflict to settle disagreements. And slightly off topic, but another never mentioned dirty little secret is that large armies need occasional acts of actual combat to keep themselves ready. That's why you see actions like Grenada, Panama, and Haiti. During extended times of "peace," these serve to keep our military forces sharp. Very good post. Makes a lot of sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodnottygy Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 wnthunt... could you PLZ put on a different picture... I have trouble arguing politics with a 3 year old twisting her hair! LOL! Sorry....LOL! But it is cute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricF Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I agree NAFTA was a starting point. I just mentioned this in conversation a few days ago. My hometown lost hundreds of jobs back then because the textile industry went south like a flock of migrating geese and quick. Buildings are still empty to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Capitalist greed is what has ruined our economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Nothing wrong with capitalism or greed as long as it is done strictly within the laws and regulations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggs Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Nothing wrong with capitalism or greed as long as it is done strictly within the laws and regulations. The probably was there were no laws and/or regulations to control capitalist greed. The greed of the labor unions cutting into the owners bottomline and then the owners greed to not allow his bottomline to suffer is why Taiwan and Mexico make everything, bud. There's hardly any manufacturing or industry left. The US already has the most prominate marinalization of weath- with the richest 1% owning well over 90% of the weath. That's only going to continue along that path. There's plenty wrong with greed... "Give capitalism a long enough rope, and it will hang itself." ~Karl Marx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Capitalist greed is what has ruined our economy. Think excessive greed has been a factor in the downfall Eric, I certainly would not argue that. Lack of control and poor solutions to the problems have also attributed to the mess we are in. Is greed always necessarily a bad thing though??? I guess kind of tend to think greed can be a good thing when someone busts their rump and has ambition/motivation, they can grow a business and employ several, you know capitalism working as it should. Without that type of capitalistic business how many jobs do we lose or never have in the first place??? Did not help to have the financial/mortgage institutions get in the mess they were allowed to get into either. Regardless of who is to blame, that has played its part in putting us where we are now. I am afraid it is only going to get worse, especially if this new stimulus plan goes through. Robert Gibbs(Obama's press sec.) has repeatedly warned that it is going to get worse before it gets better too, real reassuring for consumer confidence. Our dollar will continue to grow weaker and for what? From what I am hearing taxpayers will get as much as $1000 of their money back in the way of tax cuts starting in the 2009 tax year if they are even working. How does that help all the unemployed, and how does that in turn help stimulate the economy? Where is the balance of that $820 billion dollars going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dakota Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 There's plenty wrong with greed... "Give capitalism a long enough rope, and it will hang itself." ~Karl Marx Well we won't have to worry about that now that our country is about to get caught up in "Obamunism" (combination of Communism, Socialism, Marxism and a little bit of Obama mixed in). We are turning away from everything this country is founded on; FREEDOM! It sounds like what you are saying is that you think Karl Marx is right. Capitalism is a good thing, buddy! It allows people to live the American dream and start their own business and live their own lives! Dakota Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 The probably was there were no laws and/or regulations to control capitalist greed.I take it you meant "problem" rather than probably. If you're referring to the current financial mess which was precipitated by the burst of the housing bubble, there actually were regulations on the books, at least up until about 1997 or so, that prevented it from happening for the previous 40 years. But, because of certain bad decisions made by past presidents in the name of "fairness," we saw an unprecedented boom followed by a sudden bust in the housing market. I don't think I would lump this under capitalist greed. More like economic ignorance. If the government couldn't see (or guess) what would happen when they dictated that financial institutions loan excessive amounts of money to individuals who's incomes wouldn't support the loans... Well... "Give capitalism a long enough rope, and it will hang itself." ~Karl MarxI'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to get caught quoting Karl Marx. He's not one of my heros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I have enjoyed reading the responses on here and felt it was time to weigh in. I first want to say that I agree with William in that too many people feel that the president has enough power to change things the way he would want them. I have heard numerous times that people hope Obama can turn things around. Well, what many people fail to realize is that the president is virtually powerless without Congress, and there is really very little that the president can actually do on his own. When things are going good, the president is popular, when things are going bad, the president is unpopular, no matter who it is. If the economy is in the same shape in 4 years that it is in now, we will most likely have a new president. The problem that many people fail to see, is that when the Congress and the president are of opposing parties, most business is fighting each other. A law passes that is favorable to one party, the president vetoes, the veto is overturned. If a president knows that his veto will be overturned, then most likely he won't even bother to do so. In regards to the topic of the thread, I honestly don't believe that it is any one thing that can be pinpointed for the result of the decline in our economy. I also believe that using the importation of goods as a catchall excuse. The U.S. has been importing since the Declaration of Independence, albeit not on the scale it is today. You can blame NAFTA, you can blame presidents, Congress, etc. etc. I for one believe that there are several different reasons, of which I will talk about a few. The first one is Wal-Mart et al. Wal-Mart, as well as other "big box" retailers, have all but destroyed the "mom and pop" businesses that were a staple of every day life. Wal-Mart, Target, Lowes, Home Depot, and several others, can get it cheaper and get it in more quantities than a locally owned business could ever dream of. Do you realize that a Wal-Mart Supercenter employs approximately 500 people, which makes them the largest employer in several communities. They can get away with paying people very little because people need jobs, and because they know that their job is basically secure because Wal-Mart isn't going anywhere. The problem is, the people that work there can't afford to shop anywhere else, so they basically give their paycheck right back where they got it from. Another problem I see, and I know I may get some flack for this, but I think one of the problems is the American people in general. Now, I am not saying that all American's are like what I am about to describe, but you must admit, that there are a great many like this. How many Americans, before this economic crisis, were willing to do a job that a foreigner will do for a fraction of the pay. Even in these difficult times, there are still people who wouldn't do certain jobs because it is "beneath" them. I have a college degree and I have worked in a deli and stocked shelves at Wal-Mart, recently, all to help support my family. Sunday I start training at a new job. Not the direction I thought I was going in, but more money nonetheless. Back to my point. For too long, many Americans have been unwilling to do a job and get paid for what the job was worth. Salary demands and concessions have gone through the roof and not everyone can make 50K per year. I for one agree that teachers should be paid more, but it seems to me that the fight for higher teacher pay has been going on since the first day of school in America. Unfortunately, I was planning on earning my teaching certificate to go that direction, because honestly, considering what I have been getting paid, a teachers salary looked pretty good. I am holding off on that plan right now because the Superintendent for the school district here said the other day that he is planning on laying off 200-400 first through third year teachers because of budget cuts. Not a good time to be a teacher here. While I don't have a big problem with unions, I think they do some good and some bad, they have basically driven the cost of a car through the roof, which in turn means less people to be able to buy the car, which means less cars made, which means laying off the auto worker. I can't blame the manufacturer, because while it stinks, it is good from a business standpoint to build a car in Mexico where they can pay some $5 an hour to do the same job someone in America is earning $30 or more per hour to do the job. In my truck driving days, I visited several auto plants, Ford and GM, to make deliveries. Why should someone be paid $20 plus an hour to pop a plastic piece into a door frame, and I really got a kick out of the 4 forklift drivers on the dock, of which 3 were sitting on their rears doing nothing while one of them actually worked. Why, because they knew they couldn't get fired for doing it, and they were also part of the problem. That being said, I believe that there are just too many reasons for our economy to be in the shape that it is in right now. Too many wheels turning for it to be any one persons fault. The bottom line is, we have to buckle down and work through it and not wait for someone to tell us what he is going to do, and just go ahead and fix the problem ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m gardner Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Some of us saw this coming during the early 1980's and have prepared ever since to learn to live with it. We were considered the lunatic fringe survivalists. There will come a time when government can't or won't be able to give us what we want or need, or protect us. When we watched whole communities fold up because jobs went overseas usually because of environmental concerns or greed, it got our attention. When hurricane Katrina hit it and there was no help it woke up some more. The government is really struggling to keep a lid on just how bad it is. Obama talked about "tens of thousands of jobs being lost in January" in his radio address. He didn't really lie but hundreds of thousands would be more accurate. The GNP was reported a loss of 3.8% I believe, but that was only for the last quarter of the year. They made it sound like it was for the entire year. If you take out the product that was manufactured and couldn't be sold and was put into inventory it would've been much worse. It'll catch up next quarter. I think Obama's grasping at straws now and is trying to create an enemy for us all to get behind him and help fight. Probably the evil Wall Street moguls will take the hit. They are pretty hard to love right now. The 14 billion in bonuses given out on Wall Street was refered to as "Shameful". I thought that they were taken by the bigshots but come to find out they were given to lower level empolyees. I know a lady who is a night trader that got the largest bonus she ever got this year. The amount of work she did because of all the wild trading warranted it. Obama's saying that it'll get worse. I believe that it's just worse than they are letting on already. Just watch out how these guys chose their words. They are politicians you know. Mark Edited January 31, 2009 by m gardner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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