fly Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 A thread in the deer hunting room has made me wonder about something. To all the members here at RT what constitutes the sensless killing of an animal to you? Before answering keep these things in mind... 1. Does the legal taking of the animal play a part? 2. How does consuming the animal factor in? 3. Does the type/size of the animal make a difference? 4. Does it make a difference if there are too many or not enough of that particular type of animal? 5. Does the eatability (if that's a word) make a difference? A few examples to ponder: #1 A man is driving and purposfully runs over a trophy deer. He cuts off the antlers and leaves the rest on the roadside. He then sells the antlers to help pay the bills. #2 A man is hunting a trophy moose and legally kills it. He finds it, takes a picture, and decides to let it lay since getting it out would be too much trouble. There are no laws indicating he must remove the moose after the kill. #3 A woman (don't want to discriminate) farmer is losing a lot of her income she relies on to survive because deer are eating her crops. She spots 4 deer eating her crops and shoots all 4 out of season. The deer run into the woods and she makes no attempt to recover them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebeilgard Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 god put animals on the earth for us to use for substinance and pleasure. he also directed us to manage them. from your examples, that was not happening. the last example, the woman farmer, may have come close to being right as she was protecting her crop/income. much would depend on the quantity of animals on her place, and her not taking the meat to a needy family. the others were clearly not following directions as set forth by the bible and the game & fish folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92xj Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Number 1 and number 2 are both, not very wise chooses. The only one I agree with is number 3. The lady has to survive. The thing that she should have done differently is that she should have got a permit to protect with crops from deer. I know if the small town I went to school in that many farmers had to buy permits to harvest deer that were eating the tips of christmas tress. The only thing about that permit that I DO NOT GET is that the permit states that any deer shot off of a farm out of normal whitetail season has to be left on the ground and can not be retreived. That makes no sense to me at all but thats what they had to do. Anyhow, number 2 is just wrong in my opinion, He knew it was going to be a task getting the meat out of the woods so he should not have taken the life without the thought of trying to get it out. Number 1 would be a tough call because I do not know what it is like to have a family that I can not support. I think If I was unable to support my family there are extremes measures that I would do in order to support them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 #1) He is a poacher, a vehicle is NOT a legal method to kill a animal in any state, and that is Wanton waste, illegal everywhere. #2) Wanton waste..again illegal. #3) The farmer still needs to adhere to laws, and file for a nuisance permit. Which is usually given after proof of such incidents. Even if they are eating her crops. Most farmers will also keep all the deer they can after shooting on a nuisance permit. In NYS, nuisance permits are given ONLY for Does, no bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doe-ee Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 I agree with SteveB. We are charged with managing all wildlife and killing any animal only to let it rot is just wrong in any circumstance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) I agree with SteveB. We are charged with managing all wildlife and killing any animal only to let it rot is just wrong in any circumstance. I believe my next comment has potential for heated debate which is not my intention at all. I urge all posters to refrain from judging the opinions of others. By all means though post yours. Doe-ee, what about hunting coyotes? Most hunters don't eat coyote. Several hunters I know kill them and let them rot because they believe them to be a nuisance? Edited February 15, 2009 by fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92xj Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 [quote name= Doe-ee, what about hunting coyotes? Most hunters don't eat coyote. Several hunters I know kill them and let them rot because they believe them to be a nuisance?[/quote] what about crow??? I am the only person I know that eats them, haha, but everyone else that hunts them seems to just leave them in the field???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Before I get started here in this post. I need to give a list of priority animals that try to protect and get persevere/propagate. Deer, turkey, rabbits and game birds. There are a few animals that I hunt/trap and do not eat. #1) I do not eat dog/coyote. I skin 'em, have the hide tanned, save the skull and leave the carcass for the birds and other vermin. They eat the deer, turkey and rabbits that many hunt. Many a Redtail hawk and Owl have flourished because of my yote pile. I will not eat scavenger animals. #2) woodchuck/goundhog. I understand they can be good eatin, but I have never eaten any. I usually freeze them for coyote bait for trapping. Again...save the skulls,except for the head shots. They cause massive problems for farmers who have cattle and they eat my apples which I grow for the deer, which I eat:D. The chucks go to a neighbor that does eat them. They are unregulated and without limit in NYS. #3) Crows. I have killed countless numbers of these critters for farmer friends who have their crops raided, and to slow the raiding of nests of other animals. I have spooked crows off of a turkeys nest only to see all the eggs broken and eaten by the crows. They also spread West Nile virus and are super smart if you have ever hunted them. Not easy hunting crows. I pluck the feathers and send them off to the Pueblo Indian tribe in Santa Fe,NM. The carcass' go down by the creek bed. #4) Raccoons/Possum. I trap them and give them to a neighbor who does eat them and is grateful that I do. I keep the pelts of the coons. They have torn the crap out of my trash pails and I am tired of cleaning their mess. My neighbors come to me after spending mondo $$$ on a animal control specialist where nothing has changed except their checkbook balance;). #5) I have trapped dozens of mice in my hunting cabin. They get tossed at the stream bank for the birds and other vermin that frequent that spot. I do not eat mice. Nuff said. Small game does not seem to get the attention that big game does, and little remorse comes from shooting them. Rootin' tootin' varmints is what they are:D. But I can say this. Every animal that I have shot, did not go to waste and served a purpose somewhere along the line. Either they are nest raiders(coons/possum/crows) or rabbit/deer reduction species (yotes) or cattle injurers(woodchucks) or trash pail raiders(coons). Our needs as humans come first, and as long as we stay within the LAW. Any animal population left unchecked will over populate. That is where we come in. I make a HUGE effort to recover every critter that I have ever shot. Some crows get lost in high grass, and I will not spend a half day looking for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Before I get started here in this post. I need to give a list of priority animals that try to protect and get persevere/propagate. Deer, turkey, rabbits and game birds. There are a few animals that I hunt/trap and do not eat. #1) I do not eat dog/coyote. I skin 'em, have the hide tanned, save the skull and leave the carcass for the birds and other vermin. They eat the deer, turkey and rabbits that many hunt. Many a Redtail hawk and Owl have flourished because of my yote pile. I will not eat scavenger animals. #2) woodchuck/goundhog. I understand they can be good eatin, but I have never eaten any. I usually freeze them for coyote bait for trapping. Again...save the skulls,except for the head shots. They cause massive problems for farmers who have cattle and they eat my apples which I grow for the deer, which I eat:D. The chucks go to a neighbor that does eat them. They are unregulated and without limit in NYS. #3) Crows. I have killed countless numbers of these critters for farmer friends who have their crops raided, and to slow the raiding of nests of other animals. I have spooked crows off of a turkeys nest only to see all the eggs broken and eaten by the crows. They also spread West Nile virus and are super smart if you have ever hunted them. Not easy hunting crows. I pluck the feathers and send them off to the Pueblo Indian tribe in Santa Fe,NM. The carcass' go down by the creek bed. #4) Raccoons/Possum. I trap them and give them to a neighbor who does eat them and is grateful that I do. I keep the pelts of the coons. They have torn the crap out of my trash pails and I am tired of cleaning their mess. My neighbors come to me after spending mondo $$$ on a animal control specialist where nothing has changed except their checkbook balance;). #5) I have trapped dozens of mice in my hunting cabin. They get tossed at the stream bank for the birds and other vermin that frequent that spot. I do not eat mice. Nuff said. Small game does not seem to get the attention that big game does, and little remorse comes from shooting them. Rootin' tootin' varmints is what they are:D. But I can say this. Every animal that I have shot, did not go to waste and served a purpose somewhere along the line. Either they are nest raiders(coons/possum/crows) or rabbit/deer reduction species (yotes) or cattle injurers(woodchucks) or trash pail raiders(coons). Our needs as humans come first, and as long as we stay within the LAW. Any animal population left unchecked will over populate. That is where we come in. I make a HUGE effort to recover every critter that I have ever shot. Some crows get lost in high grass, and I will not spend a half day looking for them. I cannot add to this but say ditto. I did not know that the injuns liked the crow feathers. I may get that address from you Anthony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Well said Adjam5 and SteveB. Making a blanket statement to cover the subject is impossible, There is so much involved when it comes to managing our wildlife, whether it be the critters we eat or the varmints . Stick with the laws and you can't go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin R10 man Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) A thread in the deer hunting room has made me wonder about something. To all the members here at RT what constitutes the sensless killing of an animal to you? Before answering keep these things in mind... 1. Does the legal taking of the animal play a part? 2. How does consuming the animal factor in? 3. Does the type/size of the animal make a difference? 4. Does it make a difference if there are too many or not enough of that particular type of animal? 5. Does the eatability (if that's a word) make a difference? A few examples to ponder: #1 A man is driving and purposfully runs over a trophy deer. He cuts off the antlers and leaves the rest on the roadside. He then sells the antlers to help pay the bills. #2 A man is hunting a trophy moose and legally kills it. He finds it, takes a picture, and decides to let it lay since getting it out would be too much trouble. There are no laws indicating he must remove the moose after the kill. #3 A woman (don't want to discriminate) farmer is losing a lot of her income she relies on to survive because deer are eating her crops. She spots 4 deer eating her crops and shoots all 4 out of season. The deer run into the woods and she makes no attempt to recover them. These reasons listed are ALL WRONG. Wasting an animal for any reason(with the exception of varmits)and not doing it within the law.. is wrong! Edited February 16, 2009 by Mathews XT Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted February 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) Well said Adjam5 and SteveB. Making a blanket statement to cover the subject is impossible, There is so much involved when it comes to managing our wildlife, whether it be the critters we eat or the varmints . Stick with the laws and you can't go wrong. Agreed Steve. I suppose that for me it is the intent of the hunter prior to the shot that makes it sensless or not sensless. All the factors I listed could come into play given different scenarios. There could always be a "but what if..." thrown in. As I've gotten older I realize that one should use caution before passing judgement on the actions of other hunters. It's real easy to crticize another hunters actions because they are not like yours. But perhaps if you were in his shoes you would have done the same thing. To me the #2 scenario I posted is sensless killing even though it is legal. The #1 scenario I'm on the fence about. Just how bad off was the guy?? Were his kids starving? #3 I'd feel better about if she had attempted to use the meat, but what if she didn't get a tag because she didn't know it would be a problem and was too late to get one. If she attempted to get the meat and was caught she'd be fined and that would escelate her financial problems. I don't feel the intitial question is easy to answer, but one every hunter should ask him/herself. Edited February 15, 2009 by fly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tink Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Needs killing I shoot all sorts of things and critters that just need killing! Some things need killing twice After I kills them I some times run over them in my Suburban jest in case..... God taught me to shoot, no one taught me how to cook! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 #1 A man is driving and purposfully runs over a trophy deer. He cuts off the antlers and leaves the rest on the roadside. He then sells the antlers to help pay the bills. #2 A man is hunting a trophy moose and legally kills it. He finds it, takes a picture, and decides to let it lay since getting it out would be too much trouble. There are no laws indicating he must remove the moose after the kill. #3 A woman (don't want to discriminate) farmer is losing a lot of her income she relies on to survive because deer are eating her crops. She spots 4 deer eating her crops and shoots all 4 out of season. The deer run into the woods and she makes no attempt to recover them 1) Senseless - get public assistance, heck... its easy in NY to get. 2) Senseless - goes without saying in my book 3) Senseless - get some nuisance permits and have some needy families (like in scenario number 1), come fill them. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 I shoot all sorts of things and critters that just need killing! Some things need killing twice After I kills them I some times run over them in my Suburban jest in case..... God taught me to shoot, no one taught me how to cook! Tink, you gotta come over for our big family Christmas get together later this year. Oh, and it's "just" not "jest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doe-ee Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Oops:o Did I open a can of worms! Truthfully I never considered coyotes and crows and other varmints. Just deer and moose as mentioned in the examples. Excuses?? I have none except that maybe I got up too early this morning and didn't comprehend all that was written in the original post. My punishment (as ordered by buckee): I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. Only 97 to go! Really, sorry guys. Didn't mean to stir anything up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Oops:o Did I open a can of worms! Truthfully I never considered coyotes and crows and other varmints. Just deer and moose as mentioned in the examples. Excuses?? I have none except that maybe I got up too early this morning and didn't comprehend all that was written in the original post. My punishment (as ordered by buckee): I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. Only 97 to go! Really, sorry guys. Didn't mean to stir anything up. Diane, I see no trouble caused. Now if you were talking aboot killing a deer with a knife, well now, I'd have to say...THEN you did not know what you were talking aboot! I think this is a good topic and broadens our scope of why we do certain things;). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Oops:o Did I open a can of worms! Some things must die so that Fish may Fry:D I've always stuck to what I was taught...Game Animals are regulated for a reason only take your limit so that there are a healthy number left for the future. Other animals that are not regulated and can be hunted year round to reduce thier numbers as much as possible. Use as much of any animal you take legally if it's regulated or not...waste not want not...plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted February 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Oops:o Did I open a can of worms! Truthfully I never considered coyotes and crows and other varmints. Just deer and moose as mentioned in the examples. Excuses?? I have none except that maybe I got up too early this morning and didn't comprehend all that was written in the original post. My punishment (as ordered by buckee): I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. Only 97 to go! Really, sorry guys. Didn't mean to stir anything up. I figured you didn't Diane, which is why I wrote: "I urge all posters to refrain from judging the opinions of others." I thought someone might take offense and say something silly to you. No doubt Steve is your knight in shining armor and up for any challenge, but since I'm likely related to him "knife fighting and all" I felt the need to keep a possible situation from occuring. Gary your picture is making me think of spring bluegill! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Gary your picture is making me think of spring bluegill! The bluegill here just below a Dam like a high and dry Adams. Drifted into the eddy off the main current near some submerged brush;) Save the Endangered Canadian NightCrawlers:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 A few examples to ponder: #1 A man is driving and purposefully runs over a trophy deer. He cuts off the antlers and leaves the rest on the roadside. He then sells the antlers to help pay the bills. #2 A man is hunting a trophy moose and legally kills it. He finds it, takes a picture, and decides to let it lay since getting it out would be too much trouble. There are no laws indicating he must remove the moose after the kill. #3 A woman (don't want to discriminate) farmer is losing a lot of her income she relies on to survive because deer are eating her crops. She spots 4 deer eating her crops and shoots all 4 out of season. The deer run into the woods and she makes no attempt to recover them. To me the #2 scenario I posted is senseless killing even though it is legal. The #1 scenario I'm on the fence about. Just how bad off was the guy?? Were his kids starving? #3 I'd feel better about if she had attempted to use the meat, but what if she didn't get a tag because she didn't know it would be a problem and was too late to get one. If she attempted to get the meat and was caught she'd be fined and that would escalate her financial problems. I don't feel the initial question is easy to answer, but one every hunter should ask him/herself. #1 scenario is senseless in my opinion. Why would a guy kill a deer purposely with a vehicle, and instead of taking the meat home for his family, cut off the antlers, and sell them. and why would he risk damaging his vehicle for the sake of getting some trophy bone. Kinda silly if ya ask me. #3 is a no brainer too. Farmers can get kill permits for trouble animals like that, and all meat goes to the food bank to feed those in need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Really not much I can add to what Steve B and Anthony said here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob LeBlanc Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 IMO...if it is allowable within the gamelaws of your state / province, chances are most, if not all, of the scenarios have been considered. So, if the law says it is OK...then it is OK...BUT...you then have to deal with your personal ethics. Your example of shooting a biggame animal and taking the antlers and letting the rest of it lay...I may be wrong, but I think that most jurisdictions require that you make legitimate effort to recover the animal in its entirety...so in effect, it is against the law. ...and if you're going to harvest deer with a .350 Chevy...you wanna be sure those antlers are going to sell for more than the cost to repair (not likely)...or be driving your buddy's truck! Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aksheephuntress Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 Oops:o Did I open a can of worms! Truthfully I never considered coyotes and crows and other varmints. Just deer and moose as mentioned in the examples. Excuses?? I have none except that maybe I got up too early this morning and didn't comprehend all that was written in the original post. My punishment (as ordered by buckee): I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. I will not comment on things I know nothing about. Only 97 to go! Really, sorry guys. Didn't mean to stir anything up. .....lol...-now, that was funny, Diana.... -I think you did just fine with your origional answer- -I agree with a lot of the opinions here; we are charged with the responsibility to be stewards of the earth, and of God's animals.... -there are LEGAL and then ETHICAL obligations....(good thread here, Flyera-) -perhaps (after first adhering to the game laws, according to the state you're in)....some regions of the country have different needs and reasons to view certain animals, or varmints differently -(like the coyote, in Texas, as Tink mentioned...or wolf northwest of my part of Alaska....-where arial killing of wolves to save the moose population has been approved by vote-) -My personal opinion on this would to be first- ask myself if there is a justifiable need to take the animal( for meat, or pelt, for conservation management or "pest" control, or for putting a suffering animal out of its misery)... second....would make sure any decision based on the first criteria would adhere to all the game laws of the area.... -third...-I would strive to then go the extra mile to hold myself accountable to the highest ethical standards of salvage ....bringing out of the field more than is required (ie....in addition to the quarters,tenderloin,backstrap, and neck meat...to also bring out the heart, liver, tongue,nose, hide, lower legs of a moose-); taking the time and effort to utilize as much of the animal/bird as possible...-or, to find someone else that might need or enjoy it... eating the beaver meat...-using the tail for trap bait...or giving it to one of our Native friends{very oily, but tasty} ...using grouse wings as trap lures... -procuring and sending other bird parts, like Anthony mentioned about the crow wings, to people and groups who will use them... -perhaps donating skulls for research/management purposes(i.e. our wolverine skulls here are asked for ) -proper care of gut piles...yes, it's legal most places to just them lay; the bear,coyote/wolves will take care of it-...but, taking the responsibility, and the effort, to move it in case it's close to a hiker's trail....for peoples'safety...and, for the future of our image as hunters... -all our hunting rights could be at stake depending on how we convey this....-even if we feel "100% legal" at the time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nut Posted February 16, 2009 Report Share Posted February 16, 2009 The title of the thread is "Sensless killing of animals". I can make sense out of me killing what I do and will. That is all I need. btw I am after the critter that attacked my chickens last night now:mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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