Doc Posted March 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Their data seems to be badly skewed... The angle of elevation of most hunting rifles is around 0.1 degrees. At that angle the same .30-06 bullet will travel 1714 ft or 571 yards before striking the ground three feet below the muzzle. This produces about a 200 yard zero... The SST shotgun slug at a 0.1 degree angle of elevation travels about 1110 ft or 370 yards before striking the ground. The zero is about 150 yards. Ok, those numbers are more in keeping with my perception of realistic ranges. So what the heck could they have been doing to get those kinds of wacko findings? Further, why would all these people be buying into these results? My big concern is that non-hunters, anti-hunters and local politicians will be using these results to eliminate even the "shotgun only" areas. Maybe it's better to just quietly let everybody forget about this study and hope it sinks quickly back into the depth of oblivion. Maybe it would have been better if I had not even brought it up......lol. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csualumni21000 Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Infringement on your freedom. They are limiting what you can do on private property. Fight it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Infringement on your freedom. They are limiting what you can do on private property. Fight it. Well, unfortunately we seem to find ourselves more and more clustered together as years go on, and the reality is now that what we do on our own property and the freedoms that we demand may infringe on our neighbors right to relative safety in their own home. We have a couple of examples of where that right to reasonable safety was infringed upon up in one of the areas where rifles are legal deer hunting weapons. Basically, a baby was shot dead in the family livingroom by a rifle shot that penetrated the trailer walls. Another similar episode occured where a bullet discharged from a rifle went thru a huse wall and ripped up a crib mattress where just minutes before an infant was removed. That shot was taken from 400 yards away. So, while I generally agree with property owner's rights, I also have to recognize that the general public does have some right to the expectation of at least minimum standards of safety. That's why I started this thread.....to see if that minimum standard would be met if rifles were allowed for deer hunting in our relatively densly populated county. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adjam5 Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 Doc I hunt not far from where that little girl was killed in Sullivan county last deer season. This was the buzz all over town. Not one of the hunters I hunt with there( except my son Joe) uses a slug gun. That so called hunter, who killed that little girl was breaking all kinds of rules when that tragedy happened. He was hunting over bait, shot an illegal buck(less than 3pts on one side) and was less than 500' from the trailer when the incident occurred. BTW, he was using a .300 win mag. His actions are lawlessness to the umteenth degree. Since then there was an effort to restrict rifles in Sullivan. Hunting there has been very attractive for NYC city hunter because of the close proximity to the city. The city hunters have all but taken the blame for that tragedy( the man who killed that baby was from NYC). The Sullivan legislature has voted NOT to restrict the use of rifles in the county and surrounding areas. Here is the article. http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090119/NEWS/901190322/-1/COMM04 I really think it has to rest on the use of the firearm in the hands of a responsible hunter. We would like to think that everyone going afield with a firearm has the common sense to know rule #2 Know your target and what is beyond it. In the dense woods I hunt. My 23 years afield has never presented me with a shot beyond 78 yards in NYS. My 30/30 is an ideal weapon for that. This is a good thread and a lot of important issues are being raised and discussed. My son Joe uses a Mossberg shotgun because it is the 1st gun he ever paid for on his own, and I bought him for Christmas, when he turned 16; a .20ga slug barrel/scope for it. I have a battery of centerfires he could choose and use, but he wants to use his own gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted March 2, 2009 Report Share Posted March 2, 2009 This past season we were allowed to use rifles in Madison county for the first time. I (and others in my group) were a little apprehensive about using a rifle. After the first week of season we were all using rifles. It was soooo nice to have a more accurate centerfire rifle then a rifle slug. I even wrote the county legislator to thank him. I know that Madison County finished the season without any rifle related injuries or problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted March 3, 2009 Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 The study results seem off to me Doc. "Here the rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader projectiles travel 1,408', 840', and 686' respectfully plus ricochet distances of 3,427', 4,365', and 3,812' respectfully. Now the total distances traveled by the projectiles are 4,835' for the rifle, 5,205' for the shotgun and 4,498' for the muzzleloader." I didn't read the lengthy report, but the summary results indicate the ricochet is much greater with the slug. Ok, was 4,365' the max of one slug or average of all shots? Even if it was the average I'm hesitant to base much off one study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 Doc I hunt not far from where that little girl was killed in Sullivan county last deer season. This was the buzz all over town. Not one of the hunters I hunt with there( except my son Joe) uses a slug gun. That so called hunter, who killed that little girl was breaking all kinds of rules when that tragedy happened. He was hunting over bait, shot an illegal buck(less than 3pts on one side) and was less than 500' from the trailer when the incident occurred. BTW, he was using a .300 win mag. His actions are lawlessness to the umteenth degree. Since then there was an effort to restrict rifles in Sullivan. Hunting there has been very attractive for NYC city hunter because of the close proximity to the city. The city hunters have all but taken the blame for that tragedy( the man who killed that baby was from NYC). The Sullivan legislature has voted NOT to restrict the use of rifles in the county and surrounding areas. Here is the article. http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090119/NEWS/901190322/-1/COMM04 I really think it has to rest on the use of the firearm in the hands of a responsible hunter. We would like to think that everyone going afield with a firearm has the common sense to know rule #2 Know your target and what is beyond it. In the dense woods I hunt. My 23 years afield has never presented me with a shot beyond 78 yards in NYS. My 30/30 is an ideal weapon for that. This is a good thread and a lot of important issues are being raised and discussed. My son Joe uses a Mossberg shotgun because it is the 1st gun he ever paid for on his own, and I bought him for Christmas, when he turned 16; a .20ga slug barrel/scope for it. I have a battery of centerfires he could choose and use, but he wants to use his own gun. There is no question that that guy was a careless, lawbreaking idiot. Unfortunately, we know they are out there every year. The question is would that same unfortunate encounter with that kind of idiot have still happened with a shotgun. Maybe....maybe not. I certainly don't know the answer to that, but it would be helpful if some credible authority would take the time to find out. Also, the other incident that I referred to was a bit of a different story. That is the one where the rifle bullet went through an infants crib in Central NY......some place called Marshall that is southeast of syracuse. I'm thinking that might be one of those southern zone areas that was recently opened up to rifles. Anyway, that shot was from 400 yards away. That rifle bullet passed through the wall of the house, through a crib mattress and lodged in a piece of furniture. The infant had just been removed from the crib. That is typically what I envision happening more and more often as county after county continue to open up to rifle use across the whole southern tier. I don't know, these two incidents just have me wondering whether it is a real wise move. And don't get me wrong, I would dearly love to use a rifle. After years of getting beat up by my old 12 guage, I think it would be great to use a weapon that I can actually spend a decent amount of time on the range shooting without turning my shoulder into a purple piece of bruised hamburger. I just have these concerns. I thought maybe this study would allay some of those concerns, but I'm not finding it too credible. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2009 The study results seem off to me Doc. "Here the rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader projectiles travel 1,408', 840', and 686' respectfully plus ricochet distances of 3,427', 4,365', and 3,812' respectfully. Now the total distances traveled by the projectiles are 4,835' for the rifle, 5,205' for the shotgun and 4,498' for the muzzleloader." I didn't read the lengthy report, but the summary results indicate the ricochet is much greater with the slug. Ok, was 4,365' the max of one slug or average of all shots? Even if it was the average I'm hesitant to base much off one study. Like you, I didn't read the whole 60 page study, and just read the summary. However, there seems to be some stuff in there that is a bit questionable at best. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobw Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 cal.for deer Doc i hunt in stueben co , any center fire rifle can be used according to compendium.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Doc i hunt in stueben co , any center fire rifle can be used according to compendium.. I think it was Steuben and Yates that opened up to rifles last year, and I haven't heard of any rifle incidents in either county. However, there is a problem with basing anything on one year's results. First of all, it IS only one data point. Second, just how many people were really out there with rifles during that first season. It may be years before rifles finally saturate the area as the weapon of choice. Not everybody has the money laying around in the bank to just go out and buy a new deer rifle. Also, there are a certain percentage of hunters in those counties that didn't even know of the change, or found out too late to get a new weapon. So, I am really not using them to form any opinion on whether rifles are appropriate for our own counties. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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