New AR's for Mississippi

[Rhino]

Well there are new antler restrictions for Mississippi starting this year. The old AR's was the 4 point rule. I never really cared for it. AR's will now be based on minimum main beam length and/or minimum inside spread based on the zone you're hunting. That certainly makes a lot more sense. Legal bucks in Zones 1 & 2 must have at least a 10" inside spread or main beam of at least 13". Legal bucks in Zone 3 must have at least a 12" inside spread or main beam of at least 15". Youth hunters (15 and under) are allowed one buck of choice out of their 3 buck limit.

For those interested in reading the details go to this link. On the left side under General Public Notices click on "2009 Whitetail Deer Hunting Seasons". It's the last public notice on the list.

http://home.mdwfp.com/WMA/Default.aspx

A proposal to change our AR's has been in the works since 2006. I honestly don't have a problem with the new AR's at all. Like I said it makes sense now. The point is to protect young bucks. The only thing that really bothers me is the original proposal included the need for a mandatory tagging/reporting system. Looks like we still don't have one so we're still on the honor system. It just seems pointless to me to do this without bothering to collect data. The only data collected comes from those of us that are DMAP and FMAP participants and that only accounts for ~10% of the annual deer harvest according to the state. Also...I guess the honest hunters will be honest and the dishonest hunters will...

[rhine16]

I like em too. I fall in zone 1(I think... if not, it's 2), so our restrictions aren't that great.

I like the youth hunters being able to take one that does not meet the restrictions; however, I do not like that they can rifle hunt from when youth season comes in(mid November) until all primitive weapon seasons end. Not that are "primitive weapon" seasons are primitive anyhow.

[Strut10]

Too bad the boneheads in PA couldn't have thought of something that made that much sense.

[redkneck]

I think it's great. I've been hearing it was going to happen for sometime now. Glad to see it's finally going through. Maybe the boneheads next door to our lease will change their ways a bit now.

[Rhino]

I do not like that they can rifle hunt from when youth season comes in(mid November) until all primitive weapon seasons end. Not that are "primitive weapon" seasons are primitive anyhow.

That's not new for this year...youth hunters could do that last year too. You're right about our primitive weapons seasons. It's really single shot, cocking hammer gun season now as long as it's .35 cal or bigger.

[dbHunterNY]

yea i never shoot a buck without walking up to it and measuring it first. lol in all honesty though i think NY should be thinking about something like that. every year it seems like all the 2 year olds get mowed down during firearms season and there's not much that's older either. i almost think it's not as bad out in western NY.

[popgun]

Congratulations Mississippi.

Soon you will have a breeding population like this one.

inside spread 5 1/2". Main beam 10". Age 3.5 yrs.

From a distance it is hard to tell the difference in 10" and 12" or 14" and 15".

Expect to find a lot of dead bucks that don't quite make the mark, because the hunter will be afraid to get caught with it. Maybe the Youth's will tag all the ones that are mistakes?

I don't want to see this in Arkansas.

....popgun

[Washi]

Sounds way too complicated to me. I think popgun is right.

[Doc]

Do you suppose that there will be any problem getting that buck to hold still while you hold the tape measure up to his antlers before you shoot him?

I understand the goal of this style of AR, but just considering the practicality of such a system leaves me shaking my head. I foresee more buck carcasses laying, rotting in the woods because hunters honestly mis-judged these measurements.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

TN has AR's on some of the wma's with spread requirements. Would be nice to see them implement a statewide AR, but not likely that will happen.

[redkneck]

Do you suppose that there will be any problem getting that buck to hold still while you hold the tape measure up to his antlers before you shoot him?

I understand the goal of this style of AR, but just considering the practicality of such a system leaves me shaking my head. I foresee more buck carcasses laying, rotting in the woods because hunters honestly mis-judged these measurements.

Doc

I don't think you have to measure squat, just do like I do and shoot a grown deer.

I doubt there'll be many carcasses in the woods. I've hunted 98% of the weekends all of my life and have never been checked by a GW so that is the weak link in the equation. Of course when you hunt a private lease and you have a report with them they dont come around much anyway.

[Rhino]

Congratulations Mississippi.

Soon you will have a breeding population like this one.

inside spread 5 1/2". Main beam 10". Age 3.5 yrs.

Actually data, especially from DMAP supports the opposite. We were on that trend with antler averages by age class falling slightly under the old 4 point rule.

Do you suppose that there will be any problem getting that buck to hold still while you hold the tape measure up to his antlers before you shoot him?

I understand the goal of this style of AR, but just considering the practicality of such a system leaves me shaking my head. I foresee more buck carcasses laying, rotting in the woods because hunters honestly mis-judged these measurements.

Doc

Just takes some basic understanding of the dimentions of some thngs on a deer's head like ear length, distance between ear tips, eye to nose length, etc. Basically, if it's a basket rack...let it walk.

These new AR protect 1 1/2 year old bucks. That's it. Under our club's 18 years of DMAP participation I've never measured a 2 year old or older buck that wouldn't have made this new AR. It's a well documented fact that a deer's main beams grow longer with age. I don't doubt there are exceptions but I haven't seen them killed on our club yet. DMAP participants provide circumferance measurements, main beam lengths, and the inside spread of each deer killed to the state each year along with a jawbone. There is no way to mistake a 1 1/2 year old's jawbone for an older buck either. It can happen for older bucks but not 1 1/2 year old bucks.

I don't doubt there will be some hunters making a mistake that leave a buck in the woods. That was happening under the old 4 point rule too.

In a nutshell...this is what the majority of the deer hunters in this state wanted. Under the old 4 point rule genetically superior 1 1/2 year old bucks were being killed while letting lessor bucks walk. Data collected since the 4 point rule went into effect back in 1995 showed our antler averages by age class were falling. This is supposed to reverse that trend and improve the overall age structure of this state's deer herd.

[rhine16]

That's not new for this year...youth hunters could do that last year too. You're right about our primitive weapons seasons. It's really single shot, cocking hammer gun season now as long as it's .35 cal or bigger.

Yep I know it isn't...It was new last year.

Our Primitive weapon seasons either need to be modified or cut out. Or maybe just call it all rifle season.

[redkneck]

Our Primitive weapon seasons either need to be modified or cut out. Or maybe just call it all rifle season.

Not so primitive anymore is it? I sure dont miss cleaning the old smokepole though.

[jesse8953]

Ohio does not have any rules like this and still produce big bucks.Around here you are usually shooting at a running deer.Lots of deer drives with groups of hunters in my area.I think shotgun or ml only helps.You can't reach out and touch a deer like a rifle can.[some ml's can]To flat of country and to many hunters in one place, not to mention a lot of crazy people.We also can't hunt the rut durring gun season.Do you think deer would get bigger if there were no rifles allowed.I do love hunting Arkansas with a high powered rifle vs. hunting Ohio with a slug gun, but I think the deer have a better chance of a longer life shooting at them with a slug gun. jmo

[Rhino]

Not so primitive anymore is it? I sure dont miss cleaning the old smokepole though.

ME EITHER!!!

My 45-70 Uberti is my lucky weapon too. Since they changed the law back in the 05-06 season it's done most of the killin during open firearms seasons. That's counting pigs, bucks and does.

I know how Quigley must have felt hauling that heavy Sharps of his around though.

[Doc]

Just takes some basic understanding of the dimentions of some thngs on a deer's head like ear length, distance between ear tips, eye to nose length, etc. Basically, if it's a basket rack...let it walk.

And how many illegal deer get whacked before each hunter gains enough experience to interpret all that correctly? Don't assume that every hunter out there has the same number of years of experience as you do.

And how about the deer that never turns his head toward you so you can see the spread? I generally set up so that deer are on trails that run cross-wise to my shooting direction. Actually, I have shot more deer that never looked at me than those that did. That's not by accident, but rather by design because one major goal is not to be hunting from a position that the deer is likely to be looking.

It's one thing if you only hunt fields and food plots where you have all kinds of time to study the animal, but I hunt in the thickets and and deep woods where the action can be a whole lot more time-sensitive, and you don't have the luxury of watching and waiting for the animal to pose in all kinds of positions so that you can study all the relationships of antlers to ear-tips and eye-to-nose lengths. Even "point numbers" can get to be a bit tricky from a side view only, but trying to guess antler spread from a side view is just about impossible.

Doc

[redkneck]

I dont worry about the hypotheticals. Even following the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law should yield good results. What we got to lose? Even if it's only correctly applied by 60% of hunters it's a step forward in my opinion.

[Rhino]

And how many illegal deer get whacked before each hunter gains enough experience to interpret all that correctly? Don't assume that every hunter out there has the same number of years of experience as you do.

There's far more here than you'd think. That may be a concern where you live. Even the youth hunters that I hunt with wouldn't have a problem with this and they are allowed one buck of choice.

It's not just antler spread...it's a spread and/or main beam length and designed to protect 1 1/2 year old bucks. You can see part of both in thickets and have a good idea what you're looking at. That's where I spend most of my hunting time too. Like I said before, I've NEVER put a tape on a 2 1/2 year old's main beam and not had it exceed the minimum requirement. I have had to put a tape one some exceptional 1 1/2 year old bucks though that would but it's rare. The alternative was to leave it as it was (4 point rule) which according to the state's research was causing a drop in the average antler size in older deer.

If you're more interested in meat than antlers we have a generous 5 doe limit so that's plenty of meat to feast on between seasons.

BTW...here's a link to the brochure where the state mentioned the drop in average antler size for older bucks since the 4 point rule went into effect in 1995 along with what they beleive is needed to correct the trend.

http://www.mdwfp.com/xNet/Files/Wildlife/Deer/Website/Antler_Criteria_04-2007.pdf

Edited June 12, 2009 by Rhino

[huntcamp]

I am glad there are no rules like that in Wisconsin. We are one of the top Pope and Young B&C producers in the country. Restrictions like that I fear two ways, lots of dead deer laying around and it may push people away and not hunt at all and we need as many people as we can get. In your area if you do not want to shoot it don't. Are we going to regulate the weight also, where does it stop. I think it is time to bring hunting back to where it is supposed to be. Time to be with family and putting food on the table. Yes big mature bucks are very nice, but they are not everything. Just say what if you shoot and is 1/4 inch too small, what will you do? Sometimes even the most experienced hunters miss seeing somethings.

[Doc]

There's far more here than you'd think. That may be a concern where you live. Even the youth hunters that I hunt with wouldn't have a problem with this and they are allowed one buck of choice.

It's not just antler spread...it's a spread and/or main beam length and designed to protect 1 1/2 year old bucks. You can see part of both in thickets and have a good idea what you're looking at. That's where I spend most of my hunting time too. Like I said before, I've NEVER put a tape on a 2 1/2 year old's main beam and not had it exceed the minimum requirement. I have had to put a tape one some exceptional 1 1/2 year old bucks though that would but it's rare. The alternative was to leave it as it was (4 point rule) which according to the state's research was causing a drop in the average antler size in older deer.

If you're more interested in meat than antlers we have a generous 5 doe limit so that's plenty of meat to feast on between seasons.

BTW...here's a link to the brochure where the state mentioned the drop in average antler size for older bucks since the 4 point rule went into effect in 1995 along with what they beleive is needed to correct the trend.

http://www.mdwfp.com/xNet/Files/Wildlife/Deer/Website/Antler_Criteria_04-2007.pdf

According to the brochure that you linked, there was no "OR" involved. They were talking about "antler restrictions based on inside spread AND main beam length. That's even worse than I thought. I understand the "high-grading" argument with antler point restrictions, but making restrictions so complex that hunters have difficulties legally complying is not the answer. It seems to me that the proponents of this style of AR eventually wind up saying that all you have to do is to harvest bucks that are so huge that they have to exceed the legal requirements. Now that is no way to write or interpret a legal requirement unless you are interested in driving hunters from our ranks. That works ok on private land parcels where all of the QDM principles can be applied guaranteeing an adequate supply of such animals, but when you ask a state government to take on these kinds of restrictions, you had better be aware that a good percentage of your hunters are 1-day wonders who get about 1 or 2 days per year of actual hunting experience. These are not exactly what could be called trained hunters who understand all the slight nuances of hunting and deer anatomy, and further who have a whole lot of time available for passing up shots because the legal requirements have been written up in a complex or ambiguous way.

I know we all tend to judge hunting requirements based on our own experience and interest levels, but I personally would not be shocked to find out that the majority of hunters are a whole lot more casual about there participation in hunting than any of us here on the forums are. In fact I know quite a few guys who hunt opening day, or the first weekend only. To expect these guys to be able to look at a buck for a couple of seconds and accurately determine spread and beam length is ludicrous. That coupled with their compressed schedules is almost guaranteed to leave a fair number of mistakes (carcasses) lying rotting in the woods. Who wins with that?

Doc

[huntcamp]

Not to mention there sheer joy on taking a whitetail, not everybody has time to sit and wait for a monster. Normally it takes more than a day or so to locate a monster. Restrictions like those would do more harm than good. We are losing hunters as it is, do we need to accelerate the process. For example last year at camp, a hunter in camp had not gotten anyhing for a number of years, because he dedicated his hunting to get his kid some deer. Which is great. He finally was able to hunt for himself and he shot a nice spike. Nobody in camp said why did you shoot that, everbody was happy, including him. There are more big deer in the woods than people think. I have cameras littered throughout my place and get some pics of some monsters. Rarely see the biggest ones in daylight. I have let numerous small bucks walk, never to see them again. What I am getting at is that it should be the hunters choice not the DNR's.

[redkneck]

I am glad there are no rules like that in Wisconsin. We are one of the top Pope and Young B&C producers in the country. Restrictions like that I fear two ways, lots of dead deer laying around and it may push people away and not hunt at all and we need as many people as we can get. In your area if you do not want to shoot it don't. Are we going to regulate the weight also, where does it stop. I think it is time to bring hunting back to where it is supposed to be. Time to be with family and putting food on the table. Yes big mature bucks are very nice, but they are not everything. Just say what if you shoot and is 1/4 inch too small, what will you do? Sometimes even the most experienced hunters miss seeing somethings.

So your suggesting we just not regulate it at all?

[redkneck]

Not to mention there sheer joy on taking a whitetail, not everybody has time to sit and wait for a monster. Normally it takes more than a day or so to locate a monster. Restrictions like those would do more harm than good. We are losing hunters as it is, do we need to accelerate the process. For example last year at camp, a hunter in camp had not gotten anyhing for a number of years, because he dedicated his hunting to get his kid some deer. Which is great. He finally was able to hunt for himself and he shot a nice spike. Nobody in camp said why did you shoot that, everbody was happy, including him. There are more big deer in the woods than people think. I have cameras littered throughout my place and get some pics of some monsters. Rarely see the biggest ones in daylight. I have let numerous small bucks walk, never to see them again. What I am getting at is that it should be the hunters choice not the DNR's.

I dont know of a plot of land around here that killing a deer that would meet these AR's would be hard to do. Sure it's easier to put meat on the table with a spike, but there's enough racks around public and private land that it shouldnt discourage anyone from hunting. Also if you've ever started a management program you know the first year or so can be hard one some, but soon guys are comfortable wathing those six and eight points in the food plots without getting itchy. This should be a very good thing in a few years if guys will follow it.

[huntcamp]

in terms of antler restrictions yes. I usually let the small ones go also and watched the spike that the other hunter shot walk 10 yards in front of meearlier in the morning. Just because I did not want to shoot it, doesn't mean somebody else does not want to. Peoples choice. I have only 100 acres of land and without what the experts say QDM practices, we have shot 8 140 inch and above in the last 9 years. Seeing a few around the 180 mark only at night, while shinning. Why should the DNR tell me what to shoot and what not to. They tell us enough already. Again if you and your party does not want to shoot the little guys then don't. Why push it on everybody else. What next are we going to have to age it exactly also. Why not wait until every deer is 5 1/2 years old. Take Buffalo County for example, all the land owners got together and decided to QDM. Everybody was in agreement. Not all areas are the same. Especially north, where living has become quite hard and people need to put meat on the families table. Are we supposed to tell them no they cannot shoot their dinner, because their antlers are too small. some people do not care about the size of the rack or even what sex the deer is, they just want meat. At least now we can shoot does as well. 10 years ago we had to apply to shoot does, which was stupid. I guess I say just keep those kind of rules down south. The only good that I could see come out of rules like those would be to reign in on all the extreme long range shots. At 200 yards low light early morning can you see exact measurements. People willing to pay fines instead of leaving mistakes lay? What if it is like measuring a fish, if it is an 1/8th of an inch too small, you must release it. Cannot release a dead buck. At the check in station, do the workers have to score the animal also? What if you shoot it and 1 side busts off and you can't find it? Where do the regulations stop? Should we make everybody shoot the same weapons? Should we only hunt until noon? Should we be only allowed to shoot a buck every other year? There is more to hunting than the size of the antlers! It is the experience and the stories. My most memorable but was not my 14pt 165 inch. It was a spindly 8pt in which I shot out from under my dad as we were both sitting in the same blind. I was 16 back then and according to those regs, I could not have shot that animal. It might have been close to the size.

Edited June 14, 2009 by huntcamp