New AR's for Mississippi

[Doc]

I dont know of a plot of land around here that killing a deer that would meet these AR's would be hard to do.

See, there is the unrealistic bias that I spoke of. AR proponents that have conditions on their hunting areas where AR is not really much of a problem, and they just simply can't imagine other parts of the state or country where ARs would cause some real hardship on the local population of hunters. I think we all develop a bit of "tunnel vision" on issues of this sort and begin to imagine that the hunting conditions that we see in our own little area represents what all hunters in all counties across the state are seeing. That is when we start proposing management schemes that are tailored to our own little hunting areas without any regard as to how it would impact the rest of the state's hunting population.

Doc

[redkneck]

Doc I get around to hunt places away from my little honey hole. I can't say I travel around the state, but I have enough contacts with my friends who hunt areas north and south of the state to where I feel fairly confident that this would not be unrealistic.

[redkneck]

in terms of antler restrictions yes. I usually let the small ones go also and watched the spike that the other hunter shot walk 10 yards in front of meearlier in the morning. Just because I did not want to shoot it, doesn't mean somebody else does not want to. Peoples choice. I have only 100 acres of land and without what the experts say QDM practices, we have shot 8 140 inch and above in the last 9 years. Seeing a few around the 180 mark only at night, while shinning. Why should the DNR tell me what to shoot and what not to. They tell us enough already. Again if you and your party does not want to shoot the little guys then don't. Why push it on everybody else. What next are we going to have to age it exactly also. Why not wait until every deer is 5 1/2 years old. Take Buffalo County for example, all the land owners got together and decided to QDM. Everybody was in agreement. Not all areas are the same. Especially north, where living has become quite hard and people need to put meat on the families table. Are we supposed to tell them no they cannot shoot their dinner, because their antlers are too small. some people do not care about the size of the rack or even what sex the deer is, they just want meat. At least now we can shoot does as well. 10 years ago we had to apply to shoot does, which was stupid. I guess I say just keep those kind of rules down south. The only good that I could see come out of rules like those would be to reign in on all the extreme long range shots. At 200 yards low light early morning can you see exact measurements. People willing to pay fines instead of leaving mistakes lay? What if it is like measuring a fish, if it is an 1/8th of an inch too small, you must release it. Cannot release a dead buck. At the check in station, do the workers have to score the animal also? What if you shoot it and 1 side busts off and you can't find it? Where do the regulations stop? Should we make everybody shoot the same weapons? Should we only hunt until noon? Should we be only allowed to shoot a buck every other year? There is more to hunting than the size of the antlers! It is the experience and the stories. My most memorable but was not my 14pt 165 inch. It was a spindly 8pt in which I shot out from under my dad as we were both sitting in the same blind. I was 16 back then and according to those regs, I could not have shot that animal. It might have been close to the size.

Look, I'm just giving the guys as MDWFP credit for being aggressive in managing the herd here. I'm not saying you need it up there in WI. We have a LOT of deer here, you can kill 8 a year, heck we dont even use tags, so pop 2 more if you are that hungry, nobody has to know. All I'm saying is that if we have such a great resource why not try to develop it to a more mature herd, so that that "memorable experience" you refer to may be a trophy for some 16 year old here, instead of that spindly 8pt.

[redkneck]

And not to beat a dead horse but are you actually measuring this? I mean I just walked outside out of curiosity and looked in the shed at a big old wad of racks I've collected from all around the state over the years. And even the crappiest little six point I killed in the Columbus area with a bow still met the 10/13 requirement for my zone. Put a tape measure on it guys, we're not talking about trophy animals.

PS-- I'm not saying I've never shot anything under that 10/13 mark, but just been a long time.

[huntcamp]

What I am saying, it is not the DNR job to manange the herd, it is their job to conserve the herd. In WI we have 1.5 milliion to 2 million deer. Depending on who you talk to. They keep saying we need to thin the herd, so why put regulations in that hinder that. It should be up to the hunter/landowners that decide how they want to manage. We have about 700,000 hunters in the woods for one week a year, population does just fine. Last years gun and bow season's alone over 500,000 deer were taken. My guess mostly small bucks and does. I pass the little ones also. I would rather shoot a doe, but it is my choice and should not be the governments decision.

[redkneck]

We all want the same thing, just a difference of opinion as to how best to get there.

[huntcamp]

I agree we do want the same thing for the most part. I dream of monster bucks, but I know plenty of people who just want a deer. We have some crazy rules hear. Especially in the CWD zones, pretty much can shoot as many deer as we want. Just have to go in and ask for more tags. Bow and gun already comes with 5 only one buck tag each though. Put you can earn more buck tags with each doe you shoot. Those tags are good the following year also. We have T zone hunts (antlerless hunts) a week before the rut. Gun only. Screws everything up. We have earn a buck, must shoot a doe first. Every zone is different, go across the road and every rule can be different. Drop an apple core in front of your stand and it is bait. No baiting allowed in southern WI. Can up north though. Some zones shotgun only others whatever you choose. These are the easy rules, thereare a lot of rules where evev the wardens do not kno how to interpret. Heck we have doe with antlers sometimes. A doe shot last year had antlers that scored 145. Biggest doe I have ever seen a picture of. Do we really need more rules? I know different areas call for different action and nobody always agrees. Just shoot staight and knock-em down. Nothing like watching a big racked monster walk towards your stand bow or gun, nothing like it on earth.

[Doc]

Doc I get around to hunt places away from my little honey hole. I can't say I travel around the state, but I have enough contacts with my friends who hunt areas north and south of the state to where I feel fairly confident that this would not be unrealistic.

Is there really any one person who truly knows the exact hunting conditions of an entire state? .......or even most of it? ........ or even a big portion of it? Heck even the state game commissions don't fully understand each and every acre, or square mile, or any other large measure of property.

Doc

[redkneck]

All i'm saying is get that scraggly old 7 point rack you got hanging around somewhere and put a tape on it. Ten inch inside or 13 inch beams are small and are common I bet on all those acres in this state i havent walked out yet. It's really a small buck, imo. Also, it's all one big experiment, if it dont work, change it in the future. Personally I applaud the guys at my alma mater for supplying good data all these years and glad G&F took note.

[redkneck]

Check this out Doc.

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=65228&whichpage=1

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=64448

[Rhino]

According to the brochure that you linked, there was no "OR" involved. They were talking about "antler restrictions based on inside spread AND main beam length. That's even worse than I thought. Doc

Doc if you read the link in my initial post you will see the actual law that was signed by the legislature clearly says the AR is spread OR main beam length. In the actual document the words OR are even left in caps to emphasize that point.

I'll 2nd redkneck's statement regarding other parts of the state that I've hunted too besides my main turf in western MS. That along with others I talk to that hunt other parts of this state. No I don't know every acre and you're right nobody does. This decision was made by state biologist for the benefit of the herd as a whole. Just like the change from 3 does (plus 2 by archery) was made to 5 does by any weapon now. They did that without knowing every acre too. That goes for past changes in bag limits, seasons, and previous AR's. These new restrictions made to only protect 1 1/2 year old bucks were made for the purpose stated the in brochure. That's why I posted that link too. It's a herd issue. I'm sorry you disagree with our biologist recommendations to the state legislature to make this change but I agree with them and support them.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Rhino

[huntcamp]

having a small rack around is not the point. The point is why should the DNR or whomever is making your game laws down there care. Oh I know it is a money thing. More big deer shot, the more out of state dollars they can bring in. Deer are great in what they do. They can balance out the herd themselves. At least you guys do not have to worry about big winter kills. Too many wolves. And if it is anything like it is up here, we have 40,000 plus car deer accidents a year. A heck of a lot of crop damage. Killing does controls the herd the most. Sounds like you have a lot of deer if they hand out so many tags. Believe me these experiments tend to last longer than they should. I just learned a new regulation here. We cannot transport a deer that was shot in a CWD zone out of that particular zone. just more and more regs. Pretty soon we will not be able to sneeze without permission. Just be careful of what you wish for. Too many regs is not necessarily a good thing. More things people can get fined for. Just think of new hunters, not kids. Young adults, sometimes it is key for them to get a deer early in their hunting experience or they might stop. Yeah they can shoot a doe, butwhat if they do nothave much time and the only deer they see is a small fork. that fork would be a trophy for that hunter and one that would be remembered forever. My first deer was a doe and I will remember her forever. All deer ar trophies in their own right. People need to remember that!! Thing is most states hunter success rate are around 50%, some exceptions I am sure. Ours is under just looked up the totals. 680,000 hunters local and out-of-state. 280000 deer. Gun Season. Add another 150000 deer for archery kills. Gun season about 99,000 bucks and 180,000 does numbers are not actual just close. Down about 15% from 2007. Deer herd will likely be around 1.5 million. Plenty of deer and we are one of the best P&C and B&C producing states and we have no AR at all. Actually we do they have to be over 3 inches long, doesn't really matter anymore with all thedoe tags, but had to pass on a few in my early years. I know of a lot that were shot and left.

[redkneck]

You make good points about winter kills and wolves. Our deer dont face the same natural pressures as yours. But remember when you mention your P&Y production (which is great) dont forget we're on opposided ends of the country. There's a reason deer are bigger up there than they are down here, and we're talking about completely different environments that sometimes calls for different management strategies.

btw.... my first deer was a 3 point that may have been 5 inches inside, still got him on a plaque. Sure I was proud of him, but would have been prouder if we were managing deer better back then and it would have been a ten point.:jaw:

[huntcamp]

I agree different management strategies are needed for different areas, but should they be made mandatory for all hunters in particular area? I just think the landowners and hunters should decide how they want to manage their own herds. i guess I would rather have the antler restrictions than all of our antlerless only hunts. at least those hunts here are finally coming to an end, because we are down to only 1.5 million or so deer instead of 1.8 to 2 miliion 5 years ago. I say only sarcasstically. It jas been fun kind of debating this issue with you. Hope they spare you on these antlerless hunts. They work, but sure ruffle a lot of feathers. They hold them right before the rut.

[Rhino]

Can't say for sure what our most recent harvest numbers were. Remember MS has no tagging or reporting system so all we get, when it's available are estimates. The last estimates I saw were over 50% success. Our deer population is estimated to be 1,750,000. Looks like MS is a little smaller in area compared to WI too so we pack um into less acreage. Numbers is not a problem here at all. Granted deer population density varies from one area to another but there are areas here that max out the population density estimates if you care to check on that in the maps available on QDM's site.

What is more important...a quality hunting experience for new, non youth hunters or killing any deer with anters? For some it would be quality hunting experience, for others killing any antlered deer. I've seen it go both ways. You simply can't please everyone. Heck we can't do that in just our hunting club. You certainly can't expect to do that for every deer hunter in the state. When we went from a 5 buck bag limit to 3 we had hunters for and against the change. Same thing when we went from having special doe harvest days to a 3 doe annual bag limit, then from 3 does to 5 the first time, then back to 3 again. I haven't heard much about going back to 5 does yet for this year but I espect someone to complain about that too. What can be done are things that benefit this state's deer herd as a whole. This state's deer biologist have stated a good reason for the changes so I'm behind them with it.

[huntcamp]

Best population control is to take out the does. Which I see your state is trying to do. But to what extent. Do you have EAB or earn a buck, that in itself will make hunter shoot more does and less bucks. Seperate seasons for does only? Over population is greatest risk on a deer herd, a lot more than the age of it. Yes Mississippi is a bit smaller and more dense, that is why you have to be more careful. Just wait until CWD or something comes in like it did here. That is when the fun will start. If that hits in full stride, than all the QDM will go out the window. I am no biologist, but have read a lot of their work in recent years, because of CWD. And play one on TV LOL. If they are worried about antler size, they should be worried about diseases instead. Just wait until they say shoot every deer. Have gun seasons go for 3 months like they had it here trying to eradicate the herd in southern WI. Wait for the hired sharpshooters, who will cost taxpayers alot of money. We had the herd get so huge, because the DNR had no idea of how to manage it for the last 20 years. Just hope they are not making the same mistakes down there.

[Doc]

All i'm saying is get that scraggly old 7 point rack you got hanging around somewhere and put a tape on it. Ten inch inside or 13 inch beams are small and are common I bet on all those acres in this state i havent walked out yet. It's really a small buck, imo. Also, it's all one big experiment, if it dont work, change it in the future. Personally I applaud the guys at my alma mater for supplying good data all these years and glad G&F took note.

"Ten inch inside or 13 inch beams" is an extremely liberal restriction. I thought that something that was geared to keep 1.5 year old deer from being harvested would be a lot more stringent than that. In fact, that doesn't sound any more limiting than antler point restrictions in terms of saving 1.5 year old bucks. So why not go with the simpler antler point regs?

Doc

[Doc]

Doc if you read the link in my initial post you will see the actual law that was signed by the legislature clearly says the AR is spread OR main beam length. In the actual document the words OR are even left in caps to emphasize that point.

I'll 2nd redkneck's statement regarding other parts of the state that I've hunted too besides my main turf in western MS. That along with others I talk to that hunt other parts of this state. No I don't know every acre and you're right nobody does. This decision was made by state biologist for the benefit of the herd as a whole. Just like the change from 3 does (plus 2 by archery) was made to 5 does by any weapon now. They did that without knowing every acre too. That goes for past changes in bag limits, seasons, and previous AR's. These new restrictions made to only protect 1 1/2 year old bucks were made for the purpose stated the in brochure. That's why I posted that link too. It's a herd issue. I'm sorry you disagree with our biologist recommendations to the state legislature to make this change but I agree with them and support them.

As far as the either /or comment, I was merely going by the wording of the link that was supplied. I thought it was meant to be a source of some reliable information.

Well, let me explain exactly where I am coming from, because I don't want my comments being misinterpreted as being a knock on anyone else's management attempts. I can only speak of situations here in NY where AR is only partially implemented in a few Wildlife Management Units and where statewide AR is a hot topic of discussion right now. We have a whole array of conditions statewide including some areas where almost any form of AR would pose no particular additional challenges for any hunters. However, we also have areas where populations are pretty dismal, to the point where they have suspended issuance of antlerless permits. I am picturing an area like that where the DEC has to tell hunters that they cannot shoot any does, and then Albany in its infinite wisdom comes along telling them that 95% or more of any bucks that they see will be illegal to shoot because of arbitrary statewide AR. Basically you would be telling hunters in those areas that they are welcome to spend their money on licenses but can't harvest any deer. Now, would that make sense? Would you expect there to be any takers on that kind of deal? Would you think that maybe you just might lose the lion's share of hunters in those areas because of ill-applied AR regulations? Now I have described the two extremes within our state and I'm sure there are areas within the state that represent every condition in between. I'm sure it would be very easy to just mindlessly cast the AR regs over the whole state without any concern as to what it might do to hunter numbers, but I think that the time and effort involved in trying to factor in a bit of reality and judgement might be worth it in terms of preserving our hunter base.

Now, let me tell you that there are plenty of people here in this state that are clamoring for just such brainless, sweeping AR regs that ignore taking in local conditions, and who could care less about how such regulations might impact hunter numbers. I can only think that their attitude is, "well, I've got mine and the heck with anyone else". But in reality, I believe we do have to be concerned about what we are doing to people that have different and perhaps less fortunate conditions than what we are personally accustomed to. I also think that we have to be concerned about people who are relegated to hunting public lands and not just those who own or control their own hunting lands. In other words, we have to be a little concerned for our fellow hunters and not just look out for conditions on our own little chosen spots.

So, can I speak with any authority on what Mississippi should be doing? ..... Heck no. Probably no more than any of you can speak for your entire state. By the way, hunting a couple of different spots and conversing with a bunch of hunters does not really make one an authority on the entire state, at least it wouldn't here in NYS.

If you are indeed completely over-run by deer, why not put a few restrictions on the harvest. You're not likely to be putting any undo burden on anyone. However, if you have any areas of deer scarcity, it is completely unfair to be applying your standards to those people relegated to hunting poorer conditions. Perhaps you are correct and the entire state is covered up with deer. I'm not sure how any one person would know that, but let's assume that it is true. In that case statewide regulations may make some sense. Otherwise, make your game commission use their brains a bit and tailor special needs to special areas. Either that or plan on sacrificing some percent of your hunter population.

Doc

[redkneck]

Habitat in this state is fairly homogeneous ranging from vast hardwood bottomland in the delta to the pine plantations that cover most of the central and southern part of the state. Some of the best bucks in the state are harvested on public lands. I sure haven't been all over the state scouting, but am quite sure there aren't any places in the state worth considering some of the extreme measures you mentioned. Sorry your experience in NY has been that bad. We've had some form of AR for years now, and this is just an enhancement to that law. The four point rule has been in effect for a while now, and I've never seen one post on the MDWFP forums from guys that are fussing that they can't find a buck to kill because of that rule, and that's a BIG forum with participation from ALL 82 counties. This is just the next step to correct some of the issues that has been created due to that rule. I'm glad the state is being proactive on the issue.

[Rhino]

Well said redkneck.

Do you have EAB or earn a buck, that in itself will make hunter shoot more does and less bucks.

We do have EAB on some wildlife management areas. Most of them that I'm aware of are in the delta region north of I-20 along a strip that ranges from 20 to 50 miles wide bordering the Mississippi River.

Doe harvest for the most part has been accepted by hunters in this state since it finally took hold in the mid to late 90's. There's still some resistance from some clans but the majority of hunters have no problem killing does. Where I do most of my hunting we average killing between 2 and 3 does for every buck killed. I know of others that are similar and a few that are on the other side of the fence.

BTW...short story off point...One club I know has a lot of resistance from older members about killing does. The older hunters there are old school and no matter what, they're against killing them and complain when does are killed. The state's biologist were doing research on deer recruitment a couple of years ago. About 25 hunting clubs were approached across different parts of the state including this particular club. The results showed they were dead last in fawn recruitment (at 1 to 1 ) and "dangerously low" were the words in the report. Their club president sent me the data and according to the biologists report it was directly related to their failure to harvest enough does. Even with this data from what should have been accepted as a reliable source these same hunters refused to believe it. Some hunters will never change. :hammer1: Being that this hunting club is set up as a corporation and they own their own land you can't just kick anyone out. The members bought their share of stock so they are essentially co-owners in the land. BTW...this same club used to have a EAB rule but when enough members that were against killing does got on the board of directors they dropped it.

[Rhino]

As far as the either /or comment, I was merely going by the wording of the link that was supplied. I thought it was meant to be a source of some reliable information.

Like I said before Doc this recommendation from the state's deer biologist has been in the works since 2006. It just became law. That brochure was written long before it became law to explain why there was a need to revise the existing AR's. Numerous public meetings have taken place across this state by the Wildlife Commision over a long period of time to allow hunters an opportunity to voice their opinions about this. It isn't something that was done without having input from hunters all across the state.

The initial proposal back in 2006 included one buck of choice for every hunter. That was revised along the way from feedback at these public meetings to only apply to youth hunters. The initial proposal also included the need for a mandatory tagging system. That was dropped too. Obviously the majority of deer hunters here are strongly against a mandatory tagging system. I fall in the minority with that.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Rhino

[huntcamp]

i ask how they gat their data, they find all the fawns? Or di they take someones word on it. No state can put an exact population number of any animal, let alone know exactly how many fawns there are. i do not care how big a tract of land people own deer move unless they are fenced in and that is another problem. I have multiple pictures of a certain 10 pt and seen him 3 miles away from where the picture was taken. Maybe those areas aren't where does drop fawns, they have their comfort zones. Yes killing does is the best way to bring down a heard and deer hunting now is better than it has ever been. People here complained about last years deer kill, it was still 5th biggest on record, many factors though, more tags, more deer. It was a hard hunt last year. That is the way I like it. It should be hard,we shoud not bve able to shoot a B&C every year. If it were to become easy where would the fun be. To each hunter their own. Most hunters do not hunt everyday and a lot just hunt 1 or 2 days during gun season. Should they be penalized for others ideals. If people do not want to shoot does, they do not have to unless it is EAB and I am one of the few that support EAB, at least for awhile. I do not care whom is taking the poll, they will make it to benefit their research or they lose the money. Deer hunting nowadays is getting very commercialized, states are seeing ho much money can be brought ina and they want their piece of the pie. I have a deer camp and not a club, everybody is equal and has equal speaking rights, all the way to the youngest. i am in it for the commaraderee. Not always the trophy. Myself i do not want it to become too much like a business, less enjoyable for every one. They can shoot whatever they want and nobody will judge. Mostly they pass the small bucks. Still plenty of monsters around even after we shoot a small one or two. Next door neighbor whom is a farmer once watched a hunter shoot oneof the big boys and all of a sudden a bigger one he never has ever seen before showed up. He is always out in his field, just shows more bucks than we think are out there. I shot a 165 inch 14 pt 2 years ago, the farmer came over to look to see if it was the big one, he said it wasn't and the other was much bigger. No pictures of mine or the other one were ever caught on game cameras. If you want to manage your herd to grow big ones I am all for it, just do not push it on everyone, we need all the hunters we can get. And on point restrictions4 on one side. I saw three mounts at the WI Deer and Turkey Expo that according to those rules would have been illegal. One was a six pt scored neer 150 inches, six point near 160 inches, and the other 5 pt near 140 inches. It would not have been to nice to have to pass those ones up. ALL DEER ARE TROPHIES NOT JUST THE MONSTERS!! Leave the business aspect in the job market.

[redkneck]

I'll just state one more time, there are no point restrictions. All they are asking is that the deer be ten inside OR 13 main beam length for most of the state. These are small animals and there's no need to get him to hold still for a measuring rodeo. The big 140-150 inchers you mentioned above are still quite legal, and the day this state makes them illegal by specifying 4 on one side will not affect whether or not this boy will pull the trigger on one like that. Point restrictions are a bad choice in my opinion.

[Rhino]

i ask how they gat their data, they find all the fawns? Or di they take someones word on it. No state can put an exact population number of any animal, let alone know exactly how many fawns there are.

Actually it was an exact data situation on the data that was collected. Does were killed after the season by state wildlife department personnel. From what I was told they did it at night. Fetuses were counted from the does that were killed and numbers determined for an average for that particular tract of land. I don't recall the number of does killed by tract but I do recall it was certainly enough for the intended purpose of the research.

In this case I was talking about a privately held tract of land that's been managed to harvest 4 1/2 year old & older bucks huntcamp. If you're going to properly manage your own land you need everyone that hunts it to do what is best for the deer herd in the area, including doe harvest. You can't expect a few hunters to carry all the doe harvest load for all the hunters that hunt the same piece of land. They simply can't do it.

There are research projects undertaken by state wildlife biologist every year in this state. When they do these the biologist always use hard data.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Rhino

[redkneck]

Funny how I thought this would be one of those threads everyone would just agree on and move on!