New AR's for Mississippi

[Rhino]

Well it was my mistake for assuming hunters understood that data collection in a research project like the one I mentioned was from hard facts.

Funny how I thought this would be one of those threads everyone would just agree on and move on!

Nothing wrong with a good friendly debate between friends.

Glad I didn't bring up the AR's that were set 2 years ago for the majority of the WMA's. Oops.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Rhino

[Doc]

Habitat in this state is fairly homogeneous ranging from vast hardwood bottomland in the delta to the pine plantations that cover most of the central and southern part of the state.

That is very different from what we have here in NY. We have the Adirondack Mountains which even have their own unique extreme climate variations as well as large sections of unbroken heavily forested land. We have other areas that are very agricultural, flat, semi-open, and even large areas of transitional habitats moving from agricultural back to brushlands and forested lands. We have rural, suburban and urban areas. The whole state consists of habitat contradictions, and each one poses its own set of hunting conditions. We have even gone to the extremes of breaking the state into regions, and each region into many wildlife management units in recognition that different habitats have to be managed in different ways. So trying to concoct a statewide, one-size-fits-all rule is totally ridiculous. And yet the AR proponents are determined to do exactly that. Fortunately, our DEC is approaching all this AR stuff in a slow, cautious, deliberate fashion by opening a few areas at a time and making proper observations as to how it all effects all facets of hunting and management. I'm not sure there are many states getting involved with AR that actually even worry about impacts to hunters, and I believe that NYS is doing the transition in a resposible fashion. Of course AR enthusiasts are all upset about this careful approach and are eager to just jump in and even insisting the DEC do so. The impact of the Saturday morning hunting shows has kicked in and patience or desire for careful, thoughtful progress is not something the AR proponents are interested in. So if I sound like someone who is a bit contentious on issues regarding AR, it is only because I am finally getting a bit fed up with those who would just blunder ahead, all glassy-eyed, with visions of trophy animals behind every tree dancing in their head, mindlessly chasing some promise of big racks without any concern as to what the implications might be to their fellow hunters or the sport of hunting in general. I have little tolerance for that kind of mentality.

Doc

[redkneck]

I can see where you're coming from. You can't use a cookie-cutter approach to managing deer from state to state, or even within a state sometimes. There is a feeling among many that they should be growing the kind of bucks you see on TV regardless of what type of habitat they have or what type of management practices they are using. Around my area bucks tend to max out in the 150 inch gross range, but they are fairly rare. Biggest we've taken on our 1500 acre lease was a 146" 11pt that i killed in the four years we've hunted it. Would not surprise me if it took another 8 years to take another like it, but I keep my hopes up! Only so much you can do in red clay hills. It all goes back to the soil type. I also hunt 48 acres that is my father in laws old place, and it is sourounded by outlaws, but I never have an issue taking bucks that would meet the new AR requirements, and even took a nice little 12pt last year, but certainly would take issue with someone telling me it needed to be managed better for the herd.

[huntcamp]

but certainly would take issue with someone telling me it needed to be managed better for the herd.

That is what the DNR is telling you. And I do not need to manage better we have plenty and I mean plenty of monsters running around. Just need next door neighbor to start hunting so deer do not just run over there to be safe. Less wolves would help also. They came in opening gun season and all deer activity stopped. For 3 days I saw nothing but 5 wolves. One I could have jumped on. Like that throughout the property. I think we just have to remember what hunting is actually about. If our DNR imposes a rule like that ofcourse I would follow it. Juast try not to trip on all the dead ones as I walked through public lands. Around where I hunt things happen real fast. i hunt very thick woods and deer just show up and then are gone. Do nopt get the opportunity for much antler measurements. Have to determine very fast on whether to shoot or not. I am good at that, but is everyone? I shot an 8 pt that was 17 inch inside, nice but no real big trophy. When I shot he was 20 yards away. I had 30.06. Knew he had horns, but really could not see them. He was looking right at me and a twitch he would have bee gone. I had a baseball size hole to shoot thru at his chest. Again knew he had antlers, but was going more by body size. 180 lbs. With AR I wouldnot have been able to shoot even though I pretty much knew that he was big enough. Body size is not everything. My first buck ever 196 1/2 lb 8 pt. 12 1/2 inch inside spread. He came thru when we were dong a drive and was moving quite fast.

Oh and by the way people who shoot forks should have no less rights than any of us. Not everybody is in it for trophies they just want a deer.

[huntcamp]

My 14 pt 165 inch says we can. My dads 16 pt 161 inch says we can, my friends 145 inch says we can, my friends 140 inch says we can. My 135 inch says we can. My friends 130 inch says we can. The ones we saw that we didn't shoot says we can. The pictures say that we can. That is the last 8 years. We have no food plots just farmers fields, horrible soil, red clay with absolutely poor PH. Hay is all that grows with any regularity. Anyone can shoot whatever they want and we still have monsters around. One especially, farmer said made my 165 look small. He is not someone whom exaggerates. Neighbors lost count at 12 pts. F&S buck wasn't even biggest in state, 3 others at show were bigger, and who knows if there were anymore out there that did not bring their deer to the show. Just keep the AR down south. My arguement is not that landowners/ leasing land hunters or whatever should have their own AR's, I just do not think it should be the DNR's job top make a trophy herd. Obviously a lot of bucks survive the onslaught. When the DNR can accurately count the deer herd is the day i believe a lot of their studies.

Shoot straight and knock em down

[redkneck]

Well just don't take that out of context. My point was that I don't need DNR to impose unrealistic expectations on me, and as i stated, even on that poorly located 48 acres I easily kill deer that fall in the new ARs, but was simply trying to agree with some of the statements above that we cant all grow monsters on every tract of land.

[redkneck]

I shot an 8 pt that was 17 inch inside, nice but no real big trophy. When I shot he was 20 yards away. I had 30.06. Knew he had horns, but really could not see them. He was looking right at me and a twitch he would have bee gone. I had a baseball size hole to shoot thru at his chest. Again knew he had antlers, but was going more by body size. 180 lbs. With AR I wouldnot have been able to shoot even though I pretty much knew that he was big enough.

I don't understand this statement. I have hunted at clubs where you were basically expected to mount any and every buck you killed (which is absurd), and in those situations, you are right, you can't pull the trigger when you only have a brief second.

That being said......

The AR laws going into effect would have no effect on your scenario. If you look at a rack that falls within the 10/13 rule you'll understand that a mature buck doesn't even come close to being questionable. We're only saying let the TINY coffee-can racks walk for another year.

[Rhino]

We're only saying let the TINYcoffee-can racks walk for another year.

I'll also add that body wise those same coffee-can rack 1 1/2 year old bucks look like thin necked, long legged does with antlers on the hoof. Our 1.5 year old bucks are ~110# to ~120#. 2.5 year old bucks are ~145# ~155#. 3.5 year old bucks are ~165# to ~170#. 4.5 year old and older bucks here run from ~185# to 200+#. That's live weight, which is the way we've been weighing our bucks for DMAP for the past 18 years.

I'm not saying every hunter has or needs to have the ability to age all bucks on the hoof but it isn't that hard at all to tell the difference between 1.5 year old bucks from the older class bucks.

I have hunted at clubs where you were basically expected to mount any and every buck you killed (which is absurd).

I know of some that require that too and you're right...it is absurd. Kill the best genetic mature bucks and let the lesser genetic mature bucks walk. Basically the same mentality of what we were doing statewide with our 1.5 year young bucks under the old 4 point AR.

Here's a good example of how absurd that "mount it if you kill it" attitude is. I've gotten TC pics of this buck for the past 2 seasons. The insert in the upper right hand corner shows him at 3.5 years old. Under the old 4 pt. AR this buck was protected as a 3 year old. From this and other TC pics I got of him in 2007 his main beams were in the 17.5" to 18" range with an inside spread ~14". The following season he blew up into this mature 4.5 year old 4 point with ~20" main beams and an inside spread of close to 17". My best friend passed this one up last December since he was down to his last buck.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Rhino