kempronnie Posted June 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 i posted a picture of the guies family and the fawn thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultratec1 Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 The_Kat said: I've been in law enforcement for two years, which is far short of your time in, but I disagree with your grey area statement. Laws are very black and white. What reservation, and what nation is this? The reason I ask is because I plan to research how this tribe came to be above the federal law and how the federal government/state government can't do anything about it even though the tribal government resides in the state of Montana. I know alot about tribal government, my former police partner is a light horseman now, and he did say some tribes have special refuges and stuff for hunting, but as far as he knew they could regulate game laws and civil/public laws to their own liking as long as it was within american laws, and didn't go against them or take away from them. On top of that I live in Oklahoma and have dealt with Native American Governments all my life as thats all Oklahoma is made up of. They do great things for their people, but their control over anything besides their people and their commerce and well being is LIMITED. RangerClay said: Finally back on topic. What do you have to gain by telling us about this deer. I believe the only reason you came here was to gain support in bashing two LEO's. I read your post shortly after you made it and it had brackets. That means you were probably copying and pasting this all over the net. I have trouble believing that once this deer was killed you said to yourself, "I have to go tell the Realtree Forums". You came here, you made the post and you made sure to mention the officers names. This was an LEO bashing thread from the start, no matter how you try to sugarcoat it.:angry: Maybe you need you move on and get over it. You know what people.......... I came on this site a few years back and thought that this was the nicest group of people. Unlike OTHER forums that bash people or make people feel out of place this site wasnt like them. Well you have changed my mind. What a bunch of self-righteous JERKS. Just because a person is LEO as you have stated RangerClay does not mean that they are always right and not subjected to the same if not higher standards then the rest of us. If I was treated in a way that i thought was unjust then it would brought up in a court of law. Thats the thing about LEO, we are paid by YOU to protect and serve YOU. Kat when you say that there are no Grey areas only Black and White then I take it you write a hard copy to every person you pull over??? If not than that means you use situational law enforcement and that would be a grey area. Thats why suspects are let go, technicality in the paper work. If it was black and white and the law was broke then the person would be behind bars. Kat you say that first ammendment rights dont apply here because its a private forum??? So what you mean is that your constitutional rights are null and void the minute you register to become a member on Realtree forums??? So many people ready to bash this guy for posting this makes me wonder if I even want to be a member with such group of people think that their thoughts and opinions are the only ones that count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIwhitetailhunter Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 As I stated earlier...maybe this thread should be locked. Seems to be a little out of hand. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 ultratec1 said: Kat you say that first ammendment rights dont apply here because its a private forum??? So what you mean is that your constitutional rights are null and void the minute you register to become a member on Realtree forums??? makes me wonder if I even want to be a member with such group of people think that their thoughts and opinions are the only ones that count. You can say what you want on here within the guidelines that you agreed to when you signed. Nobody editted his posts, and what he said was not wrong....thats why the posts remain. But yes we can and will edit or remove posts that go against forum guidelines....thats old news. So yes in a way freedom of speech doesn't apply here or on any other forum for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 ultratec1 said: . Kat when you say that there are no Grey areas only Black and White then I take it you write a hard copy to every person you pull over??? If not than that means you use situational law enforcement and that would be a grey area. Thats why suspects are let go, technicality in the paper work. If it was black and white and the law was broke then the person would be behind bars. Traffic laws are grey I'll give you that.....criminal laws are not. You possess a wild animal illegal, it is seized and you are fined. You kill someone you go to prison if proven guilty. Various broken laws come with a various set of possible punishments....fines, jail time, prison, and if the DA wants to let you off the hook thats their call, but as for me as an LEO if you break a criminal law you bet your bet your getting what you deserve from me. EVERY TIME! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldksnarc Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 (edited) I disagree with locking. I don't see anything out of hand. No name calling. Maybe some personal and unfair bashing of the leo's. But, overall, what I see is healthy, spirited discussion. Nut had a good post with the link to the Montana Tribal law (based on federal law) regarding fish and game. A long but informative read. Steve B, as usual, had a well spoken analysis of the topic. I was impressed with the fervor that both Kemp and Kat had for their respective positions each had for their respective points of view. However, as a 33+ law enforcement veteran, I would have to say the law is not black and white. While it may be written in black ON white - it is and should always fade to grey. Law enforcement officers practice the primary judiciary powers of discretion AND common sense. Not every situation requires a ticket being written or an arrest being made. And, outside of a few bad apples, most LEO's do try to do the right thing in any given situation. Do they always make the right decision? Maybe not. But, I truly believe most do what they think is right in the particular situation. Attacking individual decisions without giving the opportunity to defend actions, or making concrete statements without a full understanding of the law(s), are counter-productive and, I'm sure, these traits will mellow with age and maturity. A person may get off work one day and, after having a bad day at work, be rushing home (speeding) to get the kids and get them fed, then to soccer practice, then back home to do their homework, get the laundry done, pay bills, mow the lawn, and so forth. While you have them stopped for their infraction they're thinking, "great, what am I not going to pay so I can pay for this ticket." Then, when you walk back up to them and issue them a warning, explain the need for them to slow down (for their personal safety and the safety of others - other drivers and pedestrians) their stress and frustration level has just been tremendously reduced. You have corrected the situation AND given them a better feeling for law enforcement. That doesn't mean that if you catch them doing the same thing the next day or next week you may not have to write them a hard card. An example of traffic being grey. As for an example of criminal grey: the person who failed to balance their checkbook and inadvertently wrote a bad check; or, the mother who shoplifts a pound of hamburger to feed her children. Criminal violations? Yes. You still have to file the reports and, to protect the rights of the victims and leave the discretion and, hopefully common sense, to the prosecutor. But, if the mother is simply trying to feed her children (doesn't include the mother who steals an iPOD for her kids) how about buying hamburger for her while submitting the reports of the theft of the other hamburger to the prosecutor. It has been my experience thru my numerous years in law enforcement and working with, near, and in conjunction with Indian tribes and reservations (and as pointed out in Nut's link) that they are not states, foreign governments or departments of the the federal government. They are considered sovereign nations within the borders of the U.S. As such they have the authority to establish their own criminal and civil laws and, as pointed out in Nut's link, fish and game laws - which includes "ownership." The many Indian nations in Oklahoma even issue they own driver's licenses and automobile tags - yet they are recognized as lawful tags and licenses throughout the 50 states because they are issued by a sovereign nation. Wild animals are not pets nor were they intended to be. Maybe human intervention was necessary in this case - maybe not. We will never know. It is unfortunate that the fawn was killed. I am sure if there was an abuse of authority or a lapse of discretion or common sense that will come out "in the wash" of the powers to be - at either the tribal or federal level. I, too, welcome the new members this topic has brought to the forums. Not because you were brought here because of the contentious nature of the topic, but rather because I believe most Native Americans to be the earliest conservationists. And, what better place for you to be than a forum that promotes conservationism. Edited June 26, 2009 by oldksnarc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldksnarc Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 (edited) I disagree with locking. I don't see anything out of hand. No name calling. Maybe some personal and unfair bashing of the leo's. But, overall, what I see is healthy, spirited discussion. Nut had a good post with the link to the Montana Tribal law (based on federal law) regarding fish and game. A long but informative read. Steve B, as usual, had a well spoken analysis of the topic. And, simply because one is an Administrator does not necessarily make it right or wrong. They are only opinions of individuals based on their knowledge base of the topic. I was impressed with the fervor that both Kemp and Kat had for their respective positions each had for their respective points of view. However, as a 33+ law enforcement veteran, I would have to say the law is not black and white. While it may be written in black ON white - it is and should always fade to grey. Law enforcement officers practice the primary judiciary powers of discretion AND common sense. Not every situation requires a ticket being written or an arrest being made. And, outside of a few bad apples, most LEO's do try to do the right thing in any given situation. Do they always make the right decision? Maybe not. But, I truly believe most do what they think is right in the particular situation. Attacking individual decisions without giving the opportunity to defend actions, or making concrete statements without a full understanding of the law(s), are counter-productive and, I'm sure, these traits will mellow with age and maturity. A person may get off work one day and, after having a bad day at work, be rushing home (speeding) to get the kids and get them fed, then to soccer practice, then back home to do their homework, get the laundry done, pay bills, mow the lawn, and so forth. While you have them stopped for their infraction they're thinking, "great, what am I not going to pay so I can pay for this ticket." Then, when you walk back up to them and issue them a warning, explain the need for them to slow down (for their personal safety and the safety of others - other drivers and pedestrians) their stress and frustration level has just been tremendously reduced. You have corrected the situation AND given them a better feeling for law enforcement. That doesn't mean that if you catch them doing the same thing the next day or next week you may not have to write them a hard card. An example of traffic being grey. As for an example of criminal grey: the person who failed to balance their checkbook and inadvertently wrote a bad check; or, the mother who shoplifts a pound of hamburger to feed her children. Criminal violations? Yes. You still have to file the reports and, to protect the rights of the victims and leave the discretion and, hopefully common sense, to the prosecutor. But, if the mother is simply trying to feed her children (doesn't include the mother who steals an iPOD for her kids) how about buying hamburger for her while submitting the reports of the theft of the other hamburger to the prosecutor. It has been my experience thru my numerous years in law enforcement and working with, near, and in conjunction with Indian tribes and reservations (and as pointed out in Nut's link) that they are not states, foreign governments or departments of the the federal government. They are considered sovereign nations within the borders of the U.S. As such they have the authority to establish their own criminal and civil laws and, as pointed out in Nut's link, fish and game laws - which includes "ownership." The many Indian nations in Oklahoma even issue they own driver's licenses and automobile tags - yet they are recognized as lawful tags and licenses throughout the 50 states because they are issued by a sovereign nation. Wild animals are not pets nor were they intended to be. Maybe human intervention was necessary in this case - maybe not. We will never know. It is unfortunate that the fawn was killed. I am sure if there was an abuse of authority or a lapse of discretion or common sense that will come out "in the wash" of the powers to be - at either the tribal, state or federal level. I, too, welcome the new members this topic has brought to the forums. Not because you were brought here because of the contentious nature of the topic, but rather because I believe most Native Americans to be the earliest conservationists. And, what better place for you to be than a forum that promotes conservationism. The_Kat said: but as for me as an LEO if you break a criminal law you bet your bet your getting what you deserve from me. EVERY TIME! It's not about us as law enforcement. What one deserves from me is courteous, professional service tempered with both common sense and discretion. It's about serving the public. IMHO Edited June 26, 2009 by oldksnarc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Well said oldsnarc.........I never had any of those issues as an officer. Mine were all pretty much right or wrong. You make excellent points and I do agree with you there. I guess grey is in criminal laws as well. You win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldksnarc Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Not trying to win. Just trying to pass on some sage advice from someone who was where you are once. If you can use it - great. Just remember: almost anyone can be a law enforcement officer - it takes heart to be a cop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 oldksnarc said: Just remember: almost anyone can be a law enforcement officer - it takes heart to be a cop. sadly I'm at least a year and a half away from getting back into LE....gotta wait for Jenn to get here teaching degree and a job before I can afford to come home and rejoin the ranks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultratec1 Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 (edited) Ok I have had time to go away and cool off and after reading oldksnarc's post it has made me feel even better. Maybe I should have done this before I posted my last response but didnt. I saw a guy getting bashed by people who obviously had their opinion already typed out and didnt hold back on puttin it on the forum. I will apologize to Kat and RangerClay. I still have my thoughts about it but arguing on the internet is like playing dodgeball with 3rd graders.... you may feel like your winning but you look like a dork to those who are watching. I myself have been in LE for 11yrs now and I still feel that WE are the ones who are paid to serve the ones who PAY us. Always have. I have never had the hardcore, gonna bust everyone that I can attitude and that has saved me in MANY situations. The best thing that I have ever been taught/told is situational law enforcement will make your job alot easier. There are good cops, bad cops and the cops who want to change the world. Edited June 26, 2009 by ultratec1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungry hunter Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Well heck Kat, come on back and I'll buy ya a coffee, water, gatoraid what ever. The grey areas of laws are for Defence attorneys to find. And defence attorneys are like the ocean "NEVER TURN YOUR BACK ON ONE". Me personally I was raised by my BLACKFEET grandfather I don't believe in the unwanted waste or killing without good reason. To this day I still say a prayer over harvested game. Other then that The discussion over tribal and non tribal laws accomplished a good thing. Those of us that did not know alot about now know something. And a Hearty welcome to the forums from our friends in the upper plains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 ultratec1 said: I will apologize to Kat No apology needed bud.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OUTSIDER Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 FYI everyone I have done a ton of searching for any information on these allegations and I haven't found a single thing except for this very thread on all major search engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 The_Kat said: FYI everyone I have done a ton of searching for any information on these allegations and I haven't found a single thing except for this very thread on all major search engines. Not everything that goes on in this world makes it into the news or papers Kyle.:fish: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 buckee said: Not everything that goes on in this world makes it into the news or papers Kyle.:fish: Ya don't say??? I didn't know that. J/K Steve......but I did figure that as a "BIG" controversy like this would be in the news since the reservation was pursuing it. Kinda hard to keep stuff like that quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hutchies Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Not trying to start anything but I heard a Dallas cop put it the best........... Some guys make the job their life.................Some guys see it as a job. I think that alot of cops can't drop being a cop once they take the uniform off. Underneath it all we are all the same. I know you guys have good days and bad days just like the rest of us and that's why it's at the officers descretion whether or not to writ the ticket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 My apologies to Kemp on my initial posts. I over looked the fact that your on a reservation and not just in an indian nation. I have never ever dealt with a reservation and was uninformed on the laws there. While I still disagree with their laws being held over state and fed laws, you were right in what you argued and I was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 My hat's off to you Kyle. Takes a man to say sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer2295 Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 Kat you seem to be like many of our new officers that we have in our county now. extremely dedicated, but over zealous. Things are not always black and white like you seem to think. I don't happen to believe that the young man was bashing law enforcement either, he was just expressing his opinion about an incident, and some members took it the wrong way. I to served in law enforcement for 15 yrs, and I was not offended by what was said. Also man you need to chill about the indian thing, it sounds like you are bashing on them. Of course this is just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redkneck Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 I've just been reading this one for a while. Personally, I think you should leave fawns alone, BUT none of us can say what we would have done in the same situation looking at the thing if it was in fact dehydrated and lethargic. My second thought is that (and I'm coming from a layman's perspective) tribes are sovereign nations. They govern many aspects of their lands and I would expect that to cover game laws particularly. IF everything the in the original post was in fact true, I think the GW was out of line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kat Posted June 27, 2009 Report Share Posted June 27, 2009 deerslayer2295 said: Also man you need to chill about the indian thing, it sounds like you are bashing on them. Of course this is just my opinion. Thats right it is your opinion, and I have mine as well. I said I was wrong about the reservation laws which I was, but no ...I am not going to chill out on indian laws being held above fed and state laws. It is total BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerslayer2295 Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 Kat I was just trying to get a rise out of you, lol and it appears to have done the job. Like I said, I am ex law enforcement, and I know more than most what a thankless and unappreciated job it is. To any officer on this site, I want to thank you for your efforts, and also I want all of you to be extremely careful so that you can go home to your families each and every night. God bless all of you. OK kat loosen up big fella!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swamphunter Posted June 28, 2009 Report Share Posted June 28, 2009 (edited) Huh... still waiting to see something in print like was promised backing this story up. Seems like the kempronnie clan came, bashed and went. All in a total of 14 posts between the three of them. Hopefully now this thread just dies and goes away. Edited June 28, 2009 by Swamphunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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