camoman1 Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 I dont know much about genetics but I got to pondering a bit today.... Lots of folks talk about culling bucks with 'undesirable' antler traits. But dont fawns get half of their gene traits from the mother, just like humans and all other animals do??? If so, taking that 'undesirable' buck from the herd, wouldnt really guarantee that those traits arent passed on as his mother could have another fawn with similar traits. I cant help but think that this is true because of the few hunting shows I watch.....the places that have been managed for 'big' bucks for many years still have what they call 'cull' bucks that they take. Again, I just got to thinking about this a bit today....I may have no idea what Im talking about:hammer1: lol Anybody have any ideas to share about this?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Deer genes come from ma and pa. Do the genes associated with antler growth come more from pa than ma? Good question I don't know. (I would think it would be both equally). I haven't seen any male fawns in the fall with enough antler growth to make a decision that he would never be a 130/140/or 1-whatever deer. I'd almost say one couldn't do it with 1.5 year old either. Many things can lead to poor antler growth and perhaps a spike at 1.5 years old could be a 140 by 5.5 years old. Since bucks leave mom after a year it's hard to know who a 1.5 or older bucks mom is. Therfore shooting the doe that produced a buck (that will never make book) is hard to identify. I believe this is why management areas cull bucks and not does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Actually, from what i have learned, genetic traits are not split 50/50, of which 50% would come from the femal, and 50% from the male. In all actuality, according to the research i have read, the percentage of genetic traits are split in a 60%/40% ratio...The best way to genetically engineer giant bucks is to keep breeding trophy class bucks with the same monarch doe that has shown to have supeior genetics... http://www.triplejjjranch.com/deer-for-sale.php There are all kinds of deer farms across the country that practice this same technique... The bottom line is, you can have a 200 class buck breed a doe that comes from a lesser genetic line, and the yield will be far less than what is expected due to the mothers poor genetic strain...In retrospect you can have a 130 inch mature buck breed a doe that comes from a superior genetic strain and the yield of antler development will be greater than that of the fathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camoman1 Posted August 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Deer farms are a controlled environment and can be easily manipulated.....Im talking in the wild....where during the rut, a buck may travel miles a day looking for a doe. You could whack all the 'cull bucks' you can, but then one from 5 miles away sneaks in overnite and breeds a doe that calls your property home. It just seems to me that this tactic may be a bit of a hype...in theory it makes sense of course...but its hard to control mother nature. Im not knocking this management plan, I am far from an expert on any of this. Im just interested in others thoughts about it......Im more of a meat hunter, so I dont really know much about stuff like this:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layin on the smackdown Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 (edited) I am also not basing the above on what deer farmers do...It is that way in nature as well. I have a good friend who graduated from Southern Illinois University with a degree in wildlife biology, who also states that most people have the wrong impression about how DNA and genetics work in the white tail world. He also states that the majority (i don't know what the actual numbers are) of genetics are passed down from the mothers side...Its hard for me to disagree with that coming from an individual with his credentials and background. That being said...The question i have is how do you know if you are taking out a doe with good genetics compared to a doe with bad genetics? Its basically impossible to tell the difference, other than body size at maturity. So the only other way to manage a deer herd without bringing everything you have into the lab would be to try and eliminate the mature bucks that aren't reaching the goals you have set for your herd. The problem with this is just what Camoman said...There will always be intruding deer from outside your property that will ultimately breed does, which could potentially keep "polluting" your herd with unwanted strains...but this could also work in the other direction, and bring in the desired strains... Overall, i think it is virtually impossible to generate and maintain a consistent herd of desired genetics at 100% without the aid of high fences or manipulation. Edited August 19, 2009 by layin on the smackdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 The question i have is how do you know if you are taking out a doe with good genetics compared to a doe with bad genetics? Its basically impossible to tell the difference, other than body size at maturity. So the only other way to manage a deer herd without bringing everything you have into the lab would be to try and eliminate the mature bucks that aren't reaching the goals you have set for your herd.Correct about the doe. The best way to try to improve genetics on the female side is to take out as many older does as possible and leave the younger does to breed. Why? First, you need to start trying to improve the genetics of your buck herd by removing those with undesirable traits. Then there is a better chance, although its still something of a crap shoot, that your younger does have been fathered by your more genetically desirable bucks. Managing for antler traits through selective harvest, or culling, is extremely difficult and requires a very long term strategy, but it can be done. The proof is walking around right now on all of those ranches in South Texas that started their programs back in the 80's. Is it an exact science? No. Is it all that you need to grow massive bucks? No, you still need good nutrition and age. In fact, most places would benefit more from putting their efforts into food plots or supplemental feeding programs and letting the younger bucks age to 4.5 or 5.5 years. But if you're already there with nutrition and age structure, genetic manipulation is the next logical step to grow bigger bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Correct about the doe. The best way to try to improve genetics on the female side is to take out as many older does as possible and leave the younger does to breed. Why? First, you need to start trying to improve the genetics of your buck herd by removing those with undesirable traits. Then there is a better chance, although its still something of a crap shoot, that your younger does have been fathered by your more genetically desirable bucks. So... If the farm one hunts has awesome bucks with massive antlers the best thing (management wise) would be to harvest younger does and leave the older does? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 If you're saying that your genetics are already where you want them, then it shouldn't matter what age class of does you take. Just concentrate on keeping the buck to doe ratio close to even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted August 21, 2009 Report Share Posted August 21, 2009 Managing for antler traits through selective harvest, or culling, is extremely difficult and requires a very long term strategy, but it can be done. The proof is walking around right now on all of those ranches in South Texas that started their programs back in the 80's. Is it an exact science? No. Is it all that you need to grow massive bucks? No, you still need good nutrition and age. In fact, most places would benefit more from putting their efforts into food plots or supplemental feeding programs and letting the younger bucks age to 4.5 or 5.5 years. But if you're already there with nutrition and age structure, genetic manipulation is the next logical step to grow bigger bucks. Very well said. There's really very little you can do about the doe's side of the genetics passed on. You can do something about the buck's side of the gene pool. I honestly don't believe you can know what a buck's potential is until he reaches at least 3.5 years of age. Here in MS 10 point genes are rare. Mature bucks should be 4x4's or better though. We are doing everything we can on our place to provide good nutrition for the deer herd throughout the year. I try to take out at least one mature buck each year that's less than a 4x4. In MS though we have a 3 buck bag limit so it's not like you kill one buck and your season is over like some other states. Over the past 3 years I've killed a 4.5 year old 3x3 and a 5.5 year old 2x3. I missed a big mature 3x3 a couple of years ago too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huntermq32 Posted August 26, 2009 Report Share Posted August 26, 2009 Dr. James Kroll did a long and extencive study on the subjet and proved culling is not the way to go. You might be able to find his study results online somewhere. I do rember him saying the doe plays the biggest roll in genetics. The would be cull bucks caught up in antler size around 4.5 to 5.5 years old. I culled bucks for seven years to no avail. I have on average 35 deer on my hunting property. Usually two 150 class or bigger bucks and 10 or so younger bucks. These are totally wild hunted deer and every time one of the trophy bucks gets killed another one shows up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shedhunternick Posted August 27, 2009 Report Share Posted August 27, 2009 There may be some more info on it on the Quality Deer Management website Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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