Local hunter shot

[The_Kat]

  Doc said:

One of the primary rules of hunting safety is to always be sure of whats behind your intended target and only shoot when there is no possibility that something you don't intend to shoot is not in the line of fire or within ricochet range and location.

Sounds pretty good doesn't it? And if everybody went by that rule, there probably wouldn't be hunting accidents.

So, how do we do that? Well, on organized shooting ranges, we mow down every piece of vegetation anywhere near the target, We bulldoze up huge earthen backstops to catch any and all of the lead. That is the only way of making sure "of whats behind your intended target" or in any way in the line of fire, ahead of or behind the intended target. Nothing short of that is fulfilling that safety directive.......nothing!

Now think back on all of your hunting shots and think about how many of them met that criteria. In addition to that, think about those Realtree ads on TV that show just how effective some of today's camo is in concealing other hunters (perhaps back in the trees behind the deer that you are about to fire at).

So "no excuse"?? Yes, almost all of the time that is true. but unless you do all your hunting at a prepared target range, there is always a possibility for hunting accidents. We can recite all the hunting safety jargon that we want, and it might make us feel good, but just remember that hardly anyone really abides by all of it to the absolute letter. That's why it is also essential for each hunter to take some defensive steps themselves to try to minimize the chances of getting shot.

By the way, just to emphasize the above, I have seen on four separate occasions, hunters in the gun deer season here in NY, in full camo (B/O is not mandatory), some complete with camo face paint, hunting on some super heavily pressured state land. These are the ones that I have seen because they happened to be walking. How many of these jerks have there been over the years that I have not seen because they successfully blended into the background. You've heard of "suicide by cop? Well, I think this may be a good attempt at "suicide by hunter". There is no way that such idiots could be that stupid. They must be trying for the result that could likely be expected..... on purpose.

Doc

Doc I've been shot with a .22 bullet fragment in the shoulder and face from a ricochet. But notice in my sentence I said hunting accidents LIKE THIS......

[wtnhunt]

  Doc said:

One of the primary rules of hunting safety is to always be sure of whats behind your intended target and only shoot when there is no possibility that something you don't intend to shoot is not in the line of fire or within ricochet range and location.

Sounds pretty good doesn't it? And if everybody went by that rule, there probably wouldn't be hunting accidents.

So, how do we do that? Well, on organized shooting ranges, we mow down every piece of vegetation anywhere near the target, We bulldoze up huge earthen backstops to catch any and all of the lead. That is the only way of making sure "of whats behind your intended target" or in any way in the line of fire, ahead of or behind the intended target. Nothing short of that is fulfilling that safety directive.......nothing!

Now think back on all of your hunting shots and think about how many of them met that criteria. In addition to that, think about those Realtree ads on TV that show just how effective some of today's camo is in concealing other hunters (perhaps back in the trees behind the deer that you are about to fire at).

So "no excuse"?? Yes, almost all of the time that is true. but unless you do all your hunting at a prepared target range, there is always a possibility for hunting accidents. We can recite all the hunting safety jargon that we want, and it might make us feel good, but just remember that hardly anyone really abides by all of it to the absolute letter. That's why it is also essential for each hunter to take some defensive steps themselves to try to minimize the chances of getting shot.

By the way, just to emphasize the above, I have seen on four separate occasions, hunters in the gun deer season here in NY, in full camo (B/O is not mandatory), some complete with camo face paint, hunting on some super heavily pressured state land. These are the ones that I have seen because they happened to be walking. How many of these jerks have there been over the years that I have not seen because they successfully blended into the background. You've heard of "suicide by cop? Well, I think this may be a good attempt at "suicide by hunter". There is no way that such idiots could be that stupid. They must be trying for the result that could likely be expected..... on purpose.

Doc

Bottom line here is that this shooter shot at movement, there is no excusing his action and I for one do not think any hunter should shoot at a target that they are unsure of. He did not identify his target nor did he shoot beyond or through what was an actual animal, he misidentified his intended target and made a careless decision. The shooter should be held accountable for his actions, this was no accident it was plain carelessness.

As far as the subject of knowing what is beyond your target, if you first identify your target and you are competent at hitting it, chances grow less likely that you are going to accidentally hit something beyond it even with a high power rifle. How many "accidental" shootings come from those type scenarios? Seems most shootings are cases of mistaken targets, carelessness.

[Stinger-Hunter]

Complete lack of empathy for fellow human beings. The first rule to hunting is to make sure you leave the woods alive and don't shoot anyone by mistake.

I've heard some horror stories even back when i was too young to hunt. Someone sees something move and they think it is a squirrel - they shoot and it turns out to be their buddy that sat next to a rock and his hair was blowing in the wind. They weren't using rounds to take squirrel, they were using 00buck (true story).

People are idiots. I've come to realize that you have to approach hunting the same way you do driving. Just know there are idiots out there and hunt defensively.

Here are a few things I do to avoid getting shot by idiots

1. I wear hunter orange cap while walking in the woods during bow season. I'll keep it on if ground hunting.

2. i don't walk with a flashlight ON, I keep flashing it in the trees and moving it around so people know its a flashlight not a flash of white.

3. I don't hunt public ground during any gun season (at least not weekends)

4. I'll occasionally whistle or clear my throat or say "hunter" when walking in when I know others are in the woods.

5. I don't walk around unless it is clear daylight/no fog

6. I usually wait until all other hunters have left the field before I do.

Seems paranoid, but forget that. I'd rather not get shot. I hunt with careful hunters. In Montana, one of our guys didn't take a shot at some antelope because he might have hit a cow if he missed. The cows were a few hundred yards away and he left without filling a single tag (out of state $$). Those are the types of guys I want to surround myself with.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Stinger-Hunter

[Doc]

  The_Kat said:

Doc I've been shot with a .22 bullet fragment in the shoulder and face from a ricochet. But notice in my sentence I said hunting accidents LIKE THIS......

Point taken. However, there are a lot of people who express that sentiment toward ALL hunting mishaps. And like I said, there are some situations where the victims have to bear some of the contributary involvement. The most often spouted safety rule that I hear involves the back-drop behind a deer. There are some serious flaws in thinking that we are all abiding by that one. As pointed out above, nearly none of us can say with 100% absolute certainty that there is no one decked out in camo hunkered down in the woods behind that deer that we are shooting at unless it is standing directly in front of a bullet-proof backstop and all or nearly all of the vegetation has been cleared in front of and behind the deer. It's something that sounds a whole lot better than the reality of it usually turns out to be.

However, I have to agree with you that the way the shooting described in this thread went down was inexcuseable. In fact any shooting that involves mis-identification of the target is inexcuseable. Obviously, we should not only know WHAT we are shooting at, but we should be able to pick out the exact killzone on the animal that we are shooting at. How can you be doing that when you can't even tell the difference between a deer and a human? It's hard to mis-identify anything when you are trying to place a bullet in a specific area of the animal.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

  Doc said:

The most often spouted safety rule that I hear involves the back-drop behind a deer. There are some serious flaws in thinking that we are all abiding by that one. As pointed out above, nearly none of us can say with 100% absolute certainty that there is no one decked out in camo hunkered down in the woods behind that deer that we are shooting at unless it is standing directly in front of a bullet-proof backstop and all or nearly all of the vegetation has been cleared in front of and behind the deer. It's something that sounds a whole lot better than the reality of it usually turns out to be.

However, I have to agree with you that the way the shooting described in this thread went down was inexcuseable. In fact any shooting that involves mis-identification of the target is inexcuseable. Obviously, we should not only know WHAT we are shooting at, but we should be able to pick out the exact killzone on the animal that we are shooting at. How can you be doing that when you can't even tell the difference between a deer and a human? It's hard to mis-identify anything when you are trying to place a bullet in a specific area of the animal.

Doc

How many accidents come from those type scenarios though Doc where a hunter shot through an animal and hit someone behind it? Would venture to speculate that the majority of shootings are more likely from overwhelmed excited shooters who do not identify their target. Seems we do agree that those who are guilty of those type shootings are committing inexcusable acts.

[Doc]

  wtnhunt said:

As far as the subject of knowing what is beyond your target, if you first identify your target and you are competent at hitting it, chances grow less likely that you are going to accidentally hit something beyond it even with a high power rifle. How many "accidental" shootings come from those type scenarios? Seems most shootings are cases of mistaken targets, carelessness.

Yes it's true that most shootings are a result of mis-identifying targets, but don't belittle the amount of accidents that happen as a result of unintended items in the background. For one thing, few of us have never missed. If we are counting on the animal stopping the bullet for us, then that indicates a certain level of carelessness right there. A deer is not a reliable backstop. A missed deer usually has no backstop at all except for the trees beyond. I personally have heard the buzz of a slug flying overhead from a shot just over a nearby rise. I have also heard a shot fired within 30 yards of me on the other side of a red ossier thicket. Fortunately, since I am still here today, I have to assume that the shot was not lined up with me......lol.

I don't know what percentage of the accidents occur where someone in the background gets shot, but I wouldn't simply assume that it doesn't happen. Actually that is what that whole safety rule about "knowing what lies behind the target" is all about. While few people can guarantee, 100%, that the background does not contain some idiot dressed in camo, we should still keep the possibility in mind and try to slow things down a bit so that we at least have a chance to look over the background as carefully as possible. And of course the biggest reason that I even brought this all up is to encourage people to do everything they can think of to be visible and to hunt defensively. Again, this idea of wearing camo in gun season is simply a death wish waiting to be granted.

Another random thought on safety that I know will raise a lot of controversy is the idea of shooting at running deer. This is a common scenario with drives or hunting with dogs. There is no way that you can examine the background when you are swinging on a running deer. This is made even more hazardous when using a scope and following a running deer for the shot. Even follow-up shots at fleeing deer are hazardous. What if, just as that shot goes off, a spot of orange shows up in your scope. Too late..... you can't call the bullet back. I just simply don't do it.

Doc

[Doc]

  wtnhunt said:

Would venture to speculate that the majority of shootings are more likely from overwhelmed excited shooters who do not identify their target.

"Overwhelmed, excited shooters".........That is the basic cause of just about all hunting accidents I'll bet. The bigger the buck, the more the excitement.....lol.

Most states have some form of hunter safety training, and we all have been exposed to all the rules of safety. The trick is remaining calm enough to employ those rules. Tough deal because we want to be excited. If you can't be excited, what's the point of being out there. Being excited and under control is the perfect answer. Now all we have to figure out is how to teach that sort of thing in our hunter-safety classes....lol.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

  Doc said:

Yes it's true that most shootings are a result of mis-identifying targets, but don't belittle the amount of accidents that happen as a result of unintended items in the background. For one thing, few of us have never missed. If we are counting on the animal stopping the bullet for us, then that indicates a certain level of carelessness right there. A deer is not a reliable backstop. A missed deer usually has no backstop at all except for the trees beyond. I personally have heard the buzz of a slug flying overhead from a shot just over a nearby rise. I have also heard a shot fired within 30 yards of me on the other side of a red ossier thicket. Fortunately, since I am still here today, I have to assume that the shot was not lined up with me......lol.

I don't know what percentage of the accidents occur where someone in the background gets shot, but I wouldn't simply assume that it doesn't happen. Actually that is what that whole safety rule about "knowing what lies behind the target" is all about. While few people can guarantee, 100%, that the background does not contain some idiot dressed in camo, we should still keep the possibility in mind and try to slow things down a bit so that we at least have a chance to look over the background as carefully as possible. And of course the biggest reason that I even brought this all up is to encourage people to do everything they can think of to be visible and to hunt defensively. Again, this idea of wearing camo in gun season is simply a death wish waiting to be granted.

Another random thought on safety that I know will raise a lot of controversy is the idea of shooting at running deer. This is a common scenario with drives or hunting with dogs. There is no way that you can examine the background when you are swinging on a running deer. This is made even more hazardous when using a scope and following a running deer for the shot. Even follow-up shots at fleeing deer are hazardous. What if, just as that shot goes off, a spot of orange shows up in your scope. Too late..... you can't call the bullet back. I just simply don't do it.

Doc

Never said that those cases don't occur, simply think they are probably not so common as the shootings that happen as a result of carelessness on the part of a shooter who does not respect life enough to take the time to identify what it is that he/she is shooting at. I do believe that in those rare instances where a hunter is lined up perfectly with another hunters line of bullet travel or poi or the rare ricochets are accidents that probably cannot for the most part be avoided on the part of the hunter who was not aware of the person who were not where they were supposed to be in the first place. I myself have had instances where someone was not where they were supposed to be and they were kind of in a way inline with where I could possibly have shot, matter of fact I caught someone on my neighbors land just a couple years ago who had a ground blind setup in the slough, I had a ladder stand back up the hill looking at the trail leading right to his setup. My wife and daughters and I have sole permission to hunt this 30 acre woods. He did not have permission to be where he was, and after catching him I told him how lucky he was and pointed out my stand, after he saw it he agreed. Sure a stray bullet could hit someone in cases like that, and those would be tragic accidents that probably could be avoided if those persons were more aware of where they should and should not be, betting those type situations are probably not very common to happen.

  Doc said:

"Overwhelmed, excited shooters".........That is the basic cause of just about all hunting accidents I'll bet. The bigger the buck, the more the excitement.....lol.

Most states have some form of hunter safety training, and we all have been exposed to all the rules of safety. The trick is remaining calm enough to employ those rules. Tough deal because we want to be excited. If you can't be excited, what's the point of being out there. Being excited and under control is the perfect answer. Now all we have to figure out is how to teach that sort of thing in our hunter-safety classes....lol.

Doc

Hunter safety course requirements vary from state to state. Some have birthdate cutoffs, here anyone born after Jan 1969 is required to take it unless they are a landowner hunting under the landowner exemption. Most of what is taught in the safety course here is pretty common sense stuff, reinforcement of what any hunter should know. My oldest daughter and I took the Tennessee course together here about 4 years ago and I don't think there was anything specific to safety that she learned that I had not already taught her. I do not think your hunters safety and those of us who are teaching others can emphasize enough that you cannot take back a bullet that has left your gun, you have to have respect for human life and keep that in your mind when you are out there.

As far as being excited, that is what keeps us all going back to the woods, however as you pointed out before you still have to focus on the vitals of the animal you are going to kill, if you are too excited to do that your finger should never touch the trigger. Kind of goes back to the rule to never aim your weapon at anything you do not intend to kill or destroy. That in mind, I believe that the majority of these shootings that happen are totally avoidable.

Will never forget my oldest daughters first opportunities on deer when she was 8 years old, she had been tagging along with me for about 4 years when the conditions were good. I took her for our ml hunt as she was not eligible that year under those regs to hunt the youth hunt, but she could hunt during the regular seasons. I wanted to get her out early on. Anyway we had does all over us and she would get clear shots as close as about 40 yards out where she would have one doe open and we watched them for over 45 minutes. I would tell her it is ok to shoot now, and she never would squeeze the trigger. When it was all done and we were climbing down from the stand I asked her why she never would shoot and her answer was something I will remember for the rest of my life and sure some older members here may recall the story of her first hunt as the hunter, her reply to me was: "daddy I was shaking so bad I was afraid to make a bad shot". See she did not want to injure an animal, pretty darned mature for an 8 year old girl, she killed her first deer the following year during the youth hunt when TN changed their regs for the qualification of youth hunters to be kids age 6-16.

Afraid a big part of the problem is that we have a lot of folks out there who never grow up learning to respect what the impact of their actions may do to others. Safety imo starts with respect, if people do not have respect they are a careless mishap in the making and they have no business in the woods. Unfortunately there is no law or rule that bans those who are careless or who lack respect from being out there.

[Adjam5]

Rule#1 Know your target and what is beyond it...period.

Here is the end for another hunter who was careless.

It happened last season here in NYS.

Remember it?

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091028/NEWS/910280332/-1/NEWS

[sskybnd]

you see it year after year, hunter saftey courses taken and such, as for the color blinded person, i have the same thing, i cant determine between light green and light red, but i also know that if i see a movement at 300 yards i have binocs to see just what it is, i dought we will ever see the end to it, as the hunting lands gets smaller and these trigger happy hunters continue to go afield, i see no sence in things happening like that i dont know any animal that has a figure like a person,

[NC8point]

  Doc said:

Yes it's true that most shootings are a result of mis-identifying targets, but don't belittle the amount of accidents that happen as a result of unintended items in the background. For one thing, few of us have never missed. If we are counting on the animal stopping the bullet for us, then that indicates a certain level of carelessness right there. A deer is not a reliable backstop. A missed deer usually has no backstop at all except for the trees beyond. I personally have heard the buzz of a slug flying overhead from a shot just over a nearby rise. I have also heard a shot fired within 30 yards of me on the other side of a red ossier thicket. Fortunately, since I am still here today, I have to assume that the shot was not lined up with me......lol.

I don't know what percentage of the accidents occur where someone in the background gets shot, but I wouldn't simply assume that it doesn't happen. Actually that is what that whole safety rule about "knowing what lies behind the target" is all about. While few people can guarantee, 100%, that the background does not contain some idiot dressed in camo, we should still keep the possibility in mind and try to slow things down a bit so that we at least have a chance to look over the background as carefully as possible. And of course the biggest reason that I even brought this all up is to encourage people to do everything they can think of to be visible and to hunt defensively. Again, this idea of wearing camo in gun season is simply a death wish waiting to be granted.

Another random thought on safety that I know will raise a lot of controversy is the idea of shooting at running deer. This is a common scenario with drives or hunting with dogs. There is no way that you can examine the background when you are swinging on a running deer. This is made even more hazardous when using a scope and following a running deer for the shot. Even follow-up shots at fleeing deer are hazardous. What if, just as that shot goes off, a spot of orange shows up in your scope. Too late..... you can't call the bullet back. I just simply don't do it.

Doc

Agree 100%

[Doc]

  wtnhunt said:

I do believe that in those rare instances where a hunter is lined up perfectly with another hunters line of bullet travel or poi or the rare ricochets are accidents that probably cannot for the most part be avoided on the part of the hunter who was not aware of the person who were not where they were supposed to be in the first place.

Last year, there were two incidents that I would have thought were beyond the realm of statistical possibility. The first one involved a rifle shot that entered a mobile home and killed a 4 year old girl that was standing in the livingroom. The second was a rifle shot that penetrated a house wall, passed through a crib mattress and lodged in a piece of furniture. An infant had just been removed from that crib shortly before the incident. Both of these were deer hunting incidents. I am familiar with these two strange shooting accidents because on another forum, we were just discussing new areas (more populated) in NYS opening up to the legal use of rifles instead of just shotguns. Neither was exactly the scenario that I laid out as far as someone being hidden back in the woods, but they both point out the ridiculous reality of coincidence when it comes to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And twice in one year boggles the mind. That kind of makes me think that that same result could be a lot more prevalent than we might imagine out in woods between hunters. I'm sure it's not a leading cause of hunting accidents or anywhere near it, but I'm not so sure that it is insignificant either.

So anyway, the message that I was trying to convey is to hunt defensively and do your best to be visible. That's one of the reasons I have become so bullish on Blaze Orange. I don't care about color blindness, or fear that it might spook deer, or whatever. It is still one more item that is useful and important in saving lives during hunting season. I'm not saying that you don't, but I am saying that there are still a lot of hunters who refuse to wear B/O and come up with all kinds of ridiculous reasons why they shouldn't. Many of these people will recite back to you that you should "always be sure of what lies behind the target that you are shooting at", as a justification for not wearing B/O. I'm just saying that in almost all cases, that is a rule that sounds good, but is never really 100% followed. Especially if there is some jerk that is determined to wear camo and is hiding back in there.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

  Doc said:

Last year, there were two incidents that I would have thought were beyond the realm of statistical possibility. The first one involved a rifle shot that entered a mobile home and killed a 4 year old girl that was standing in the livingroom. The second was a rifle shot that penetrated a house wall, passed through a crib mattress and lodged in a piece of furniture. An infant had just been removed from that crib shortly before the incident. Both of these were deer hunting incidents. I am familiar with these two strange shooting accidents because on another forum, we were just discussing new areas (more populated) in NYS opening up to the legal use of rifles instead of just shotguns. Neither was exactly the scenario that I laid out as far as someone being hidden back in the woods, but they both point out the ridiculous reality of coincidence when it comes to being in the wrong place at the wrong time. And twice in one year boggles the mind. That kind of makes me think that that same result could be a lot more prevalent than we might imagine out in woods between hunters. I'm sure it's not a leading cause of hunting accidents or anywhere near it, but I'm not so sure that it is insignificant either.

So anyway, the message that I was trying to convey is to hunt defensively and do your best to be visible. That's one of the reasons I have become so bullish on Blaze Orange. I don't care about color blindness, or fear that it might spook deer, or whatever. It is still one more item that is useful and important in saving lives during hunting season. I'm not saying that you don't, but I am saying that there are still a lot of hunters who refuse to wear B/O and come up with all kinds of ridiculous reasons why they shouldn't. Many of these people will recite back to you that you should "always be sure of what lies behind the target that you are shooting at", as a justification for not wearing B/O. I'm just saying that in almost all cases, that is a rule that sounds good, but is never really 100% followed. Especially if there is some jerk that is determined to wear camo and is hiding back in there.

Doc

Pretty sure there was some discussion on that one here Doc, and seems if I am remembering correctly that there were some disturbing details about the shooter.

Bottom line is if hunters are sure of their targets as they should be the biggest majority of these shootings would never happen. A hunter on his land wearing camo to attempt to have better chances at his game should not have to worry that there is some jerk out there who will not take the time for good judgement to realize that movement is just that, but we all know that there are idiots out there and we all have to be concerned because you just never really know.

[Adjam5]

  Doc said:

The first one involved a rifle shot that entered a mobile home and killed a 4 year old girl that was standing in the livingroom.

Doc

This is the conclusion of that case.

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091028/NEWS/910280332/-1/NEWS

BTW...I hunt private family owned property(63 acres) and patrol it very often. We know who is going to be hunting where, even on our borders. Gun season, there is some orange present on every hunter who hunts our land( hat minimum) and during bow season, no orange at all.

Accidents are just that accidents. But negligence is another story altogether about not knowing where your bullet is going.

[joeaveragehunter]

Number one reason why I wont rifle hunt public land. And just another reason bow hunting is superior to gun hunting.

[niet32]

I believe this was on private land and no one has mentioned whether they think this was a "hunting rage" incident where a guy who was leasing land had enough of trespassers and his emotions got the best of him?

I agree with many that it could be an accident but unless you are old and have bad eyesight mistaking someone for a deer with a ML is VERY hard. it's not like a shotgun where you can quickly point and shoot. You want to make sure of your shot because you only get 1!!!

[Doc]

  wtnhunt said:

A hunter on his land wearing camo to attempt to have better chances at his game should not have to worry that there is some jerk out there who will not take the time for good judgement to realize that movement is just that, but we all know that there are idiots out there and we all have to be concerned because you just never really know.

Yeah, I have a bit of private land, but I also realize that I have trespassers too. And those guys are the ones I worry most about in terms of taking hurried, careless shots. Frankly, I don't even get out of my yard without B/O. In fact, even in my yard I keep my eyes and ears open ..... lol.

Doc