Leo Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I've found that free floating the barrel to improve accuracy is mostly true but it is not always true. Truth is sometimes free floating the barrel makes things worse! Weatherby Mark V's are notorious for loosing accuracy when free floated (though not all do). Remingtons are even more notorious for benefitting. My question is. If you got a rifle barrel free floated did accuracy benefit or not? This might be interesting information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Givan Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 My rifle was free floated when I bought it. It shoots 1 inch groups easily at 100 yards. I love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted October 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 My rifle was free floated when I bought it. It shoots 1 inch groups easily at 100 yards. I love it. What specific rifle was it? I'm trying to get a feel for what rifles benefit and what rifles don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan Givan Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 It is a Stevens model 200, which is made by Savage. Its chambered in .308 win. I love the way this gun shoots. It has a very crisp breaking trigger, and when I do my part it shoots moa groups at 100 yards. It comes from the factory with a free floated barrel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterbobb Posted October 25, 2009 Report Share Posted October 25, 2009 I guess I'm not going to be a lot of help because the only rifles I've ever tinkered with have been Remingtons. As you pointed out earlier they have always benifited from free floating . I did this with three 788's and two 700's. The benefit on most of them was marginal but noticable. One of the 700's showed significant improvement. It went from shooting 2.25" groups to 0.75" groups. :gun2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hungry hunter Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 No problem with Savage 110 in .308, the dollar bill goes all the way without touching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 So, the question is: What is it about free-floated barrels vs. not, that results in good accuracy or deteriorated accuracy? One would think that something like that would be consistant from one make/model to the other. I have heard that free-floating the barrel always results in improved accuracy ......... Apparently that's not so. How come? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csualumni21000 Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I think it would be of little benefit for 95 % of shooters. What kind of distances are you shooting and are you good enough to notice a difference. I would think spending the money on training and ammo would be a better allocation of funds. It is the fiddler not the fiddle the majority of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m gardner Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I've owned and shot several hundred rifles and they were all different in their preferences. My Weatherby Mark V ultralight is free floated from the factory and shoots fine. I've found that if a rifle has a quality barrel it will shoot acceptably no matter how it's bedded.(Tupperware stocks excluded of course, they are a pain and I replace them). If the barrel is not perfect some sort of contact bedding will usually help it. I think barrels are better in these days of modern manufacturing because most shoot well free floated. In the good old days of my youth we struggled with pressure bedding, accraglas etc. to get them to shoot just well enough to hunt with. When Shoe Goo came on the market I remembered how the Brits used ground up rubber to get their Enfields to shoot well enough to compete with so I decided to try it as a bedding medium. It worked wonderfully on two rifles I tried it on. The only problem was I couldn't find a suitable release agent and stopped after making two permanently bonded assemblies. I may try it again sometime. I'm thinking Kroil or blue Loctite may offer a solution. It's just fun to experiment sometimes. Though embarrassing. But only if you admit to it. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Savage 116 7 Rem Mag - Bedded action and floated barrel. Groups reduced about 3/4 inch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted October 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I've owned and shot several hundred rifles and they were all different in their preferences. My Weatherby Mark V ultralight is free floated from the factory and shoots fine. I've found that if a rifle has a quality barrel it will shoot acceptably no matter how it's bedded.(Tupperware stocks excluded of course, they are a pain and I replace them). If the barrel is not perfect some sort of contact bedding will usually help it. I think barrels are better in these days of modern manufacturing because most shoot well free floated. In the good old days of my youth we struggled with pressure bedding, accraglas etc. to get them to shoot just well enough to hunt with. When Shoe Goo came on the market I remembered how the Brits used ground up rubber to get their Enfields to shoot well enough to compete with so I decided to try it as a bedding medium. It worked wonderfully on two rifles I tried it on. The only problem was I couldn't find a suitable release agent and stopped after making two permanently bonded assemblies. I may try it again sometime. I'm thinking Kroil or blue Loctite may offer a solution. It's just fun to experiment sometimes. Though embarrassing. But only if you admit to it. Mark Check the Mark V Ultralight again. The Bell and Carlson stocks appear to be free floated but I've found that in fact they aren't completely floated. About 1/2" in from the forearm end there are two little contact nubs in the stock that actually press on the barrel. The nubs are about 1/2" wide. From the nubs to the action the barrel is free floated. They are easy to miss. I understand this is a Weatherby specification and I'd be surprised if they aren't there. I've been emphatically warned not to sand those nubs off. I have had decent luck using zymoil carwax as a release agent but you need to be sure the wax is sticking to the metal. Any oil on it will prevent that. I've heard Kiwi Neutral color shoe polish is easier to use than carwax. I'll probably try it next. I test release agent experiments by applying it to a piece of metal then sticking it to a piece of wood with the bedding agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m gardner Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 I bought that Weatherby at an estate sale so someone may have removed the nubs. It shoots into an inch or less with most loads anyways. It's a 338-06 A-Square and shoots best with the 185 grain Barnes TSX and Varget. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 So, the question is: What is it about free-floated barrels vs. not, that results in good accuracy or deteriorated accuracy? One would think that something like that would be consistant from one make/model to the other. I have heard that free-floating the barrel always results in improved accuracy ......... Apparently that's not so. How come? Doc OK, let me ask the question a different way: What problems are we trying to correct by free-floating a barrel? Or another way: if a barrel is not free-floated, what are the problems that that could cause? Or if a barrel IS free-floated, what problems might that cause? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted October 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 OK, let me ask the question a different way: What problems are we trying to correct by free-floating a barrel? Or another way: if a barrel is not free-floated, what are the problems that that could cause? Or if a barrel IS free-floated, what problems might that cause? Doc My take on it is this. Free Floating the barrel removes stress and binding that can affect the barrel. Sometimes it's the stock pushing on the barrel in a bad way and sometimes it's the barrel pushing on the stock. In either case it can cause unpredictable shooting results. Pressure bedding is a controlled pressure so the results are repeatable. It's typically required when a barrel is too "whippy" to be accurate when free floated. The pressure bedding gives the barrel the extra support it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 OK, let me ask the question a different way: What problems are we trying to correct by free-floating a barrel? Or another way: if a barrel is not free-floated, what are the problems that that could cause? Or if a barrel IS free-floated, what problems might that cause? Doc Doc...I have a Ruger M77 in .300 win with a laminate stock. From the factory...first shot would be good...second shot would be 1/2" high and 1/2" right...3rd shot would be 1"+ high and 1"+ right...so on until it would group at around 4" high and 4" right. Let the gun cool...first shot was good...2nd shot 1/2" high and right etc... Same results. Pulled the barrel and action out...could actually see where the barrel was rubbing the stock...it was marked a bit on the lower left hand side. Used a bedding with stainless steel in it for the action and hogged out the stock that floated it more than the dollar bill trick. Gun now shoots good every shot...not just the first shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Pressure bedding is a controlled pressure so the results are repeatable. It's typically required when a barrel is too "whippy" to be accurate when free floated. The pressure bedding gives the barrel the extra support it needs. Guess this may answer my question about Gander mountains accurizing services. Got a catalog from them when I was in there last year sometime and they had available a service where their smith would install what they are calling "AIM"(accuracy improving module, go to page 23) that applies pressure to the barrel. Thought it was kind of interesting, but not so sure how it would work when some suggest a free floating barrel will improve accuracy and would seem this contradicts that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Doc...I have a Ruger M77 in .300 win with a laminate stock. From the factory...first shot would be good...second shot would be 1/2" high and 1/2" right...3rd shot would be 1"+ high and 1"+ right...so on until it would group at around 4" high and 4" right. Let the gun cool...first shot was good...2nd shot 1/2" high and right etc... Same results. Pulled the barrel and action out...could actually see where the barrel was rubbing the stock...it was marked a bit on the lower left hand side. Used a bedding with stainless steel in it for the action and hogged out the stock that floated it more than the dollar bill trick. Gun now shoots good every shot...not just the first shot. This was some of what I had heard about the value of free-floating. It was to avoid a heating barrel from moving away from the stock as the barrel metal grew from the heat. Leo indicates that there may be interferences between the stock and the barrel that build up stress points that can cause erratic barrel reactions when shot. That sounds likely too. However, if this was always the case, why not free-float all barrels as a common construction? So Leo says that some barrels are too "whippy" to be free-floated. That kind of makes some sense too. Perhaps slight variations in loads might cause a "whippy" barrel to react differently from shot to shot. So more forceful bedding that lashes down the barrel might be needed to force the barrel under control. This stuff is fascinating because I have been told in the past that free-floating is something that will always improve accuracy. Now I find out that it can actually diminish accuracy......... Interesting. I've got a feeling that there is a whole lot more to this subject. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) This was some of what I had heard about the value of free-floating. It was to avoid a heating barrel from moving away from the stock as the barrel metal grew from the heat. Leo indicates that there may be interferences between the stock and the barrel that build up stress points that can cause erratic barrel reactions when shot. That sounds likely too. However, if this was always the case, why not free-float all barrels as a common construction? So Leo says that some barrels are too "whippy" to be free-floated. That kind of makes some sense too. Perhaps slight variations in loads might cause a "whippy" barrel to react differently from shot to shot. So more forceful bedding that lashes down the barrel might be needed to force the barrel under control. This stuff is fascinating because I have been told in the past that free-floating is something that will always improve accuracy. Now I find out that it can actually diminish accuracy......... Interesting. I've got a feeling that there is a whole lot more to this subject. Doc Quite a few very expensive custom rifles are extremely accurate and not free floated. Every now and then I'll get to shoot someones "production" of the shelf gun that is just amazingly accurate. It won't be free floated either. An extremely accurate and stressfree fit between stock and barreled action can produce great accuracy. On custom guns they work hard to get it right. On production guns occasionally the manufacturing tolerances happen to meet up perfectly. If you have a production gun that is not free floated but is extremely accurate don't mess with that stock! If you want to see if free floating or pressure bedding will improve that gun, I strongly suggest you get another stock to try that out on. If it doesn't work out as an improvement you can always go back to the original unaltered stock. Sometimes the barrel may not be very whippy but flexes enough during the shot in a free floated channel to cause serious issues. Some folks call this "barrel slap". What happens is the barrel flexes enough to "slap" the inside of the free float channel during the shot. The result is shot groups that seem to follow a line and string out along it. You'll have oval groups instead of round ones and the gun will do this even if you are certain the barrel is cold between every shot. Often opening up the channel some fixes the problem but occasionally the barrel is flexing too much for this to be a practical solution. Opening up the channel too much looks bad and weakens the forearm of the stock. Pressure bedding can fix this without modifying the barrel or action. And it can still be done to the stock if free float doesn't work. Personally I think pressure bedding is a better option than cropping an inch off the barrel. Cropping just 1 inch off the barrel (say from 22 to 21") will reduce the deflection by 15%. So cropping can have a significant effect. I've done this and it worked but now I wish I'd tried pressure bedding first. I need to add. If you get an aftermarket replacement stock for a gun. Before you do anything to the stock. Try it first! It might work great right out of the box. Edited October 28, 2009 by Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lypekise73 Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Free float or not If Dean made a cigar box with a floyd rose and emg 81/85s, he be all over that .../looks aroundhe might not actually even come in to this thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 If Dean made a cigar box with a floyd rose and emg 81/85s, he be all over that .../looks aroundhe might not actually even come in to this thread... What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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