Doc Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 I have been assuming that there really was no practical way to "count deer". I have also been a bit frustrated over the fact that there are areas of the state where statistical methods of herd management doesn't seem to be all that reliable without some method of verifying results occasionally to see if the statistical conclusions and the assumptions based of those conclusions have been drifting off the mark over the years. A post over on the bowsite forum kind of opened my eyes to a real neat possibility. It may just be that PA has found a verification method that could be used in a lot of states, including NY. [ QUOTE ] DCNR launches aerial survey effort to gauge deer populations in State Forests, 250,000 acres across the state. Infrared camera equipped plane has begun the survey. DCNR, PGC & hunters want the same thing an accurate estimate the number of deer living on the state forest lands & gamelands. Vision Air Research Inc. Boise, Idaho began flying Sunday night overe Delaware State Forest, Pike Co. Then flyovers in Sproul state forest, Clinton & Centre Co. Other ares include Parker Dam State park, Clearfield. Hicks Run, Elk Co. Denton Hill Susquehannock, Potter Co. Paddy Mt. Bald Eagle, Union & Centre Co.Tuscarora, Perry Co. & Tioga Co. Vision Air Research was founded to specialize in wildlife surveys using advanced aerial infared sensor technology.It has monitored elk, deer, bighorn sheep, moose, sage grouse since 1996. Details on the firm and it's procedure can be found at www.visionairresearch.com Selected forests can be found at www.dcnr.state.pa.us [/ QUOTE ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take a look at the companies web-site. Apparently they also do habitat and vegetative studies also. Sounds to me like a game managers dream-tool. What do you all think? Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin R10 man Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Re: Deer Count How does it tell the difference in the size of an animal?? I assume all warm blooded animals will show up, not just deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Re: Deer Count Interesting technology......I bet it has already been used by government in some way....What do you think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhino Posted February 17, 2005 Report Share Posted February 17, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] Interesting technology......I bet it has already been used by government in some way....What do you think [/ QUOTE ] Yep, probably developed originally for Big Brother but so are a lot of technologies we use today too. That's a new one on my Doc and ought to be a lot more reliable way to get an accurate deer count than those previously used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count I remember hearing about this a while ago but I didnt know they were actually doing this. Its not going to get a 100% accurate count but it should be a heck of a lot accurate then whatever system they have been using in the past. It will be interesting to see what the results are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count Rhino, I agree it is probably alot more accurate. Now the problem is getting the respective DNR's to use the technology instead of their geusses to manage the deer herds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count I also wonder what it would cost to use something like this for an entire state every year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count Neat web page. Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarylandQDMA Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count have not checked out the sight yet, but just guessing, there must be one heck of a price tag for using them to survey from the air. ok now I will check it out. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckbuster11 Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] I recently attended a seminar and heard a wildlife biologist say that they have used this technology here in Maryland in some of the parks in Mongomery County. He reported in one square mile they counted 515 deer. That number seemed high, so they did it again on another night and counted 507. Talk about a deer problem. He said they did open this area to bowhunting only. They can also tell an adult deer from a fawn based on the size. Pretty neat stuff. [/ QUOTE ] Wow...that is a boat load of deer!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MarylandQDMA Posted February 18, 2005 Report Share Posted February 18, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] I recently attended a seminar and heard a wildlife biologist say that they have used this technology here in Maryland [/ QUOTE ] live2hunt: do you know who/what company the state used? be nice to know for future private use. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] I also wonder what it would cost to use something like this for an entire state every year? [/ QUOTE ] While I am only guessing, I would assume that this method would not be used every year. I'll bet it is to just establish a base-line to correct, or re-set their statistical systems. After many years of not really having such a baseline, this could go a long ways toward making their statistical systems start tracking right on the mark. While the deer count is marginally important, I think the great value is in what they will learn about the herd distribution. Pockets of extreme high or low density will now be right there in a picture for them. On the other forum (Bowsite.com), I was kind of letting my mind wander a bit about the role that technology could play in the future of herd management, and I mentioned the possibility of several states, or perhaps all of them pooling their resources and constructing a satellite system that uses infrared signatures to count deer and look at distributions. After getting severely shot down on that idea, someone came up with this article explaining that PA was going to use a similar technology to do exactly what I was suggesting. The only difference is that they will be using planes instead of satellites. I still think that there will come a day when the technology is ready for satellites. Maybe not today, but some day. When they finally do that, I think they will be surprised at how cheap it turns out to be. For one thing once in place, the system will be useful as many times as they need to use it. It will become an annual (or more often if desired), look at the entire herd in as great a detail as necessary. The distribution details will be able to be disected in as many different ways as they desire. And if it is a shared activity among states, the outlay will be minimal. This could wind up to be the biggest advance in deer management ever. All they have to do is start thinking outside the box just a little bit. This effort by PA looks like they may be starting to do that. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Deer Count We do both aerial surveys and night time spotlight counts. Its amazing sometimes just how many deer are really out there. When we fly we'll almost always see a few true monters that'll make your eyes bug out. Of course those old wise guys are never seen during the season... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckshot Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Deer Count Very interesting Doc.I think the DEC would be stunned when they see how far off they are in estimating(guessing) our deer herd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] On the other forum (Bowsite.com), I was kind of letting my mind wander a bit about the role that technology could play in the future of herd management, and I mentioned the possibility of several states, or perhaps all of them pooling their resources and constructing a satellite system that uses infrared signatures to count deer and look at distributions. After getting severely shot down on that idea, someone came up with this article explaining that PA was going to use a similar technology to do exactly what I was suggesting. The only difference is that they will be using planes instead of satellites. Doc [/ QUOTE ] Doc, Why would they say satellites would not work for this type of data gathering? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodge4x4 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Deer Count pretty cool site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] Doc, Why would they say satellites would not work for this type of data gathering? [/ QUOTE ] I believe the issue is the current resolution of satellite photos. Apparently the technology that we always hear about where supposedly you can recognize faces and read headlines on newspapers, comes only after many man-hours of digital enhancement just to get 1 good picture. I know what the results are on internet satellite photography, and what I have seen so far would be inadequate for deer recognition. I really don't know. I am quite ignorant on space age photographic technology. My thought is that it would probably not actually be images that they would be looking at, but discreet infrared signatures that may not even look like deer. These infrared results would be scanned by computer and then reploted on regular satellite images showing numbers, density and location. This information could also be printed of in chart form for easy analysis. Is this technology available today?......I really don't know. Are there any physical barriers that would prevent this technology from easily being developed? ................ I doubt it. Would it be expensive? ..............Well, that all depends on how expensive you think that our current, more man-hour intensive methods are today. It also depends on how much interstate cooperation you could get to finance the development and implementation. Personally I think it would turn out to be a bargain. I also think the results would be a phenomenal tool for deer herd management. No, you probably could not tell a buck from a doe, and you might even wind up counting an occasional goat here and there, but it would give you a statistically exact quantity of deer acting on a specific chunk of habitat. Just imagine how many questionable assumptions and sometimes bogus factors, and fragile theories that there would be that would have to be revised, corrected or perhaps not even used anymore. But then.... what the heck do I know about such things. ..........Pretty much nothing!!! It was just one of those crazy thoughts that occasionally pop into my head when I don't really have enough to do. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Deer Count Thanks for the info Doc. Within the next 5 years the resolution will double for optical remote sensing satellites. This will go to 1/2 meter resolution. This is enough to see deer. You will not be able to tell if its male or female, but it should show the deer fairly well. The bad part is it will be a small shot. To get the higher resolution, the total size of the image is going to be fairly small. In order to capture a large section of land, it will take many shots. Typically this is black and white only. We should be able to get some very good maps in the near future. To get into the infra red and multispectural sensing, the resolution goes down. This is a fairly new field for most companies and they are still learning a lot. As far as the cost, it would be way out of line to have one strictly for game counting. Even for the east coast, let alone a few states. If you figure the cost of a high resolution sensor (satellite) that would cost $30M - $50M alone. Launch the satellite, communicating with the satellite (antenna, ground station, etc), storage devises to archive the data, huge mainframes to process the digital data into pictures, and manpower to operate all of this gets very expensive. You could probably run the project for $25M per year, after the satellite and ground hardware is purchased. Thats quite a chunk of change for monitoring the deer herd. That would be for softcopy distribution only. If you want the data on film, its even more. Just buying imagry from the few suppliers is expensive. Now you see why its so expensive for the good products. The Vision Air Research actually looks like a decent option. It should be much cost effective than satellite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Re: Deer Count AJ- Thanks for the info. That's the kind of cost data I was hoping to see. The numbers sound quite large, but I wonder what each state is forking out now just trying to get at the same information. I think it might be surprising to see the cost of the personel and computer system creation and maintainance involved in trying to assess herd populations and distributions. Now, let's say you got 5 or 6 states (or more) involved in cost sharing on this kind of a project. I wonder just how the numbers would compare when stacked up against there normal budget allocations for this same kind of information. And, of course there has to be some value placed on the fact that when you are all done, you have some real numbers that are fact instead of theoretical estimates. The infrared aerial survey might be a lot cheaper, but another article that I read on the PA project indicated that it was only being done for the public hunting lands. Also, they indicated only an 83% count due to the animals moving while sections were being photographed. Also, this is a one-shot deal just to establish a base-line. Now that is about 2000% better than anything else they are doing now, and will provide information that is worth its weight in gold, but a satellite system would be a whole lot more accurate, and would do entire states, and would be in place for multiple studies any time that it would be useful. It still sounds like something that would have to be studied out and costed out in order to determine if it was feasible or not. If an all-encompassing study were to be performed, I'll bet a shared satellite system might just be a lot more cost effective than intuition might lead you to believe. Oh well, we'll probably never know. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Re: Deer Count I would love for it to happen. I am a satellite systems engineer and I fly satellites for a living. It would be a great job flying one that dealt with hunting. The upkeep and operation could be cost effective if it were split among various states. Since the job is being done from space, it will be easy to do any state as the satellite will pass every state. You would not have to do anything special to scan California or Maine. Just build your loads and send them up. When it passes over, it does its thing. Now if there were some way to overcome the $billion + start up costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] I remember hearing about this a while ago but I didnt know they were actually doing this. Its not going to get a 100% accurate count but it should be a heck of a lot accurate then whatever system they have been using in the past. It will be interesting to see what the results are. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah...I for one can't wait for the results. However, I can hear it now...if hunters don't hear what they want to hear...they'll cry foul! I like the idea of an outside source doing it also...not the PGC. As far as it being accurate, its suppose to prove pretty good results. I also heard they were to fly over a fenced area (place where they (PGC) know how many deer are in it) and see how accurate of a count they can get. It was my understanding that they fly at such a low speed (almost stalling the engines) and the night vision that they use...they could actually see a deer's ear. I can't wait to see the results...but Iam glad the PGC is taking some steps (reguardless of the costs) to maybe answer a few questions about the herd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin R10 man Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Re: Deer Count That was my only concern that size would screw up the count.Or counting animals that are close to the same size as deer. I still would have to see it to believe it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] Or counting animals that are close to the same size as deer. I still would have to see it to believe it! [/ QUOTE ] If their night vision is good enough to make out the deer's ear...what other animal would be out in the woods that they could possibly mistake it with? I'm just glad its being done indepently and not my the PGC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted February 27, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Re: Deer Count [ QUOTE ] That was my only concern that size would screw up the count.Or counting animals that are close to the same size as deer. I still would have to see it to believe it! [/ QUOTE ] Take a look at the website noted in the original post ( www.visionairresearch.com ). Wander around their site and look at the gallery of pictures. It is amazing technology! Yeah, there may be an occasional farmer's lost goat that gets counted, but I'll bet that doesn't mess the numbers up too bad. Boy, I thought I was a real pessimist and cynic, but some of you guys have really got me beat by a mile. This is a GOOD thing, people.........unless you're real happy with the way things are done now. There really is nothing wrong, or evil, or some part of a conspiracy, about going through a verification process when your whole system is built on statistics. Be thankful that they recognize that. Here in NY we haven't even progressed to that stage yet. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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