Long shots?

[Ravin R10 man]

Sonny, very simply put...the shot becomes unethical the moment you try to shoot beyond your ability.

[redkneck]

Don't we beat this same dead horse once a month?

[johnf]

When I'm practicing I know I could hit a deer in the vitals out to 60 yards. I'm not going to shoot one past 20-30. I've never shot one or taken a shot past 18 to date. If I want to shoot a deer at 80 yards, I'll bring a gun.

[okiedog]

Don't we beat this same dead horse once a month?

Seems that way.

I proable have a extend range that I will shoot that is further than the majority will say they will shoot. I have no problem taking a _ _ yard shot if the conditions are right for me.

Fill in the blank with what ever number you want.. really dont feel like debating my shots:hammer1:

[okiedog]

I know I could hit a deer in the vitals out to 60 yards. I'm not going to shoot one past 20-30.

If I want to shoot a deer at 80 yards, I'll bring a gun.

So opening morning of archery season your sitting in the stand and "your" deer of a lifetime steps out feeding at 40 yards with "your" perfect conditions in place. You are telling me that you will pass this deer and hope you see him again in a few weeks when rifle season opens?

Honest answers only please.

[hutchies]

Elk is a big big target..............even though alot of guys wouldn't I would shoot at one at 70 or 80 if I had pins that far.

[Adjam5]

Don't we beat this same dead horse once a month?

For you John.( stole this from Gary, GWSmith )

[ruttinbuc]

Elk is a big big target..............even though alot of guys wouldn't I would shoot at one at 70 or 80 if I had pins that far.

For you John.( stole this from Gary, GWSmith )

This could be said of almost every topic in this room...:yes:

[Doc]

Sonny, very simply put...the shot becomes unethical the moment you try to shoot beyond your ability.

And "your ability" is not necessarily based on what you can do with field points on an archery range in your summer attire. Certainly you would think that part of "your ability" would have to be based on consideration of potential movement of a live target as well. There's an awful lot rolled into that phrase, "your ability", isn't there?

Doc

[Monofletch]

WOW! I practice up to 65 and some 70 yards, but 40 would be my limit unless I had the "PERFECT" situation and was spot on with the range....then just maybe.....60.

[bowin_in_illinois]

My motto is in my sig...

Bowhunting is about how close...not how far.

That being said...I don't think it's my place to determine what someone elses ethical range is...all I can do is determine mine. I know my limitations...I know how I practice. ...and for me, the challange is to see how close I can get.

[Doc]

My motto is in my sig...

Bowhunting is about how close...not how far.

That being said...I don't think it's my place to determine what someone elses ethical range is...all I can do is determine mine. I know my limitations...I know how I practice. ...and for me, the challange is to see how close I can get.

Yep, some of the best deer hunters I know don't really score very well on the target range. They concentrate on getting within "touching range" before shooting. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea. That's where the skill is. For me that's what the whole appeal of bowhunting is really all about and always has been. That's why I got into it to start with. I see long-range bow hunting to be a failure of hunting skills. I'm a hunter first, and an archer second. To me the bow-hunting prowess is exhibited best by knowing the animal good enough and having adequate skills to get very close. Otherwise, my favorite season would be gun season.

There is another thing that kind of puts me off about this new emphasis on long distance bow hunting. In a lot of states such as ours (NYS), archers enjoy a few extra (but important) benefits in terms of season length and season location (relative to the rut), and bag limits, strictly because the bow is considered by most to be a short-range weapon that needs a lot of advantages for success. However, with all the hype about long shots that rival shotgun accuracy (real or exaggerated), many other people are looking to push their way into what was traditionally archery times of the year. I've got to say that with all these archers trying to sell archery as a long-distance weapon, some of these people that would set up other seasons within traditional archery seasons are having quite a bit of success in changing attitudes to favor their stance. All this talk about 60, 80, 100 yard shots just may put us in the back seat when it comes to premiere bow season placements.

Doc

[joeaveragehunter]

Seems like eithics is a personal opinion and decision in the end. What about the guy that puts out 3 gallons of corn when only 2 gallons is legal. What if the guy obeying the law with 2 gallons takes shots out to 75 yards? What if the guy who puts out 3 gallons does it so he can take all his shots at 20 yards? Would you side with the ethical hunter who is "breaking" the law or the law abiding hunter who is "unethical"? Just a hypothetical, but it makes a point.

[Tony]

Yep, some of the best deer hunters I know don't really score very well on the target range. They concentrate on getting within "touching range" before shooting. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the idea. That's where the skill is. For me that's what the whole appeal of bowhunting is really all about and always has been. That's why I got into it to start with. I see long-range bow hunting to be a failure of hunting skills. I'm a hunter first, and an archer second. To me the bow-hunting prowess is exhibited best by knowing the animal good enough and having adequate skills to get very close. Otherwise, my favorite season would be gun season.

Doc

so what is very close range? please tell me at what distance the shot doesnt become ethical to be taken on a big game animal? 20, 30, 35, 42, 12?

at what distance am i considered a bowhunter and at what distance am i considered a archer? at what distance am i considered skilled enough to be called bowhunter? i sure wish someone would tell me. if your max distance is say 30 yards, then you let a 170 class buck walk at 32 yards?

once some of you figure out what a close shot is while bowhunting, then let me know and i will take all my pins off my sight past that distance.

i have been working at being a bowhunter for 33 years but if im doing something wrong i sure want to correct it.

Tony

[Doc]

so what is very close range? please tell me at what distance the shot doesnt become ethical to be taken on a big game animal? 20, 30, 35, 42, 12?

at what distance am i considered a bowhunter and at what distance am i considered a archer? at what distance am i considered skilled enough to be called bowhunter? i sure wish someone would tell me. if your max distance is say 30 yards, then you let a 170 class buck walk at 32 yards?

once some of you figure out what a close shot is while bowhunting, then let me know and i will take all my pins off my sight past that distance.

i have been working at being a bowhunter for 33 years but if im doing something wrong i sure want to correct it.

Tony

Are you telling me that you have been hunting for 33 years and have not established answers to those questions yet? Are you telling me that you need someone else to make up distance numbers for you? Are you telling me that you do not recognize that shooting distances have to allow differences from what you can do on a stationary target on an archery range vs. under hunting conditions? Those are the things that differentiate an archer from a bowhunter. On the range, we are always pushing the envelope because the results are simple. You either miss the bull or you don't. Nothing really lost other than that. Not so for the bowhunter and most of us understand that and adjust our shooting distances accordingly.

As with anyone else, the hunting shooting distances have to be established for ourselves. Abilities, equipment and hunting conditions all have to be factored in, and they are all different for each individual. So if you are looking for someone to cough up some magic number for you ...... forget it. In my case, I have determined that I personally should not be shooting any farther than 30 yards. That's just the point where I feel comfortable that I can get the job properly done. That's not a reflection of what I can do on a field course on a nice August day when I am in my archery competition mode with an absolutely un-movable, non-breathing target with absolutely no potential for any interference throughout the arrows path. And even with that 30 yard restriction, I would feel that I have done my job a whole lot better if that 30 yards can be turned into 10. That's where I put the emphasis. To me that is a better job of hunting. It can't always be done, but that is what I try to do. Contrast that to some of the posts here of guys bragging about their 70, 80, 90 and even 100 yard shots. That's the difference between a hunter and an archer. A hunter sees a deer, the archer's mentality sees just another target to fling an arrow at.

Also, in response to your 170" buck scenario, I hope you are not suggesting that we should adjust our shooting distances based on the score of the buck's antlers.

Doc

[okiedog]

I see long-range bow hunting to be a failure of hunting skills. I'm a hunter first, and an archer second. To me the bow-hunting prowess is exhibited best by knowing the animal good enough and having adequate skills to get very close. Otherwise, my favorite season would be gun season.

Doc

So lets say you were comfortable with a 30 yard shot in a hunting situation. What you are saying is if you had a deer at 20 yards with a good clear shot you are going to let him keep coming closer to try and get a shot at 15 or 10 yards to see how close you can get?

To me, the "how far" argurement is about the same as "how close" do you let them get. Taking a chance of being spotted or scented is a major concern when I choose a deer to shoot. I know my ability and have tested it many times. When that deer enters into "my" range and offers me a good shot, he is close enough.

Everyone is different I know, but I am both a hunter and archer as well and being a good archer has done nothing but make me a better hunter.

[huntinman802]

i think if you are that good of a shot and are confident enough to shoot that far then do it. no one can tell you how far you can or cannot shoot, you are the one that has to make up your mind and just know. i have shot with people that shouldnt be shooting at anything past 5 yards, but i have also shot with people who can shoot at EXTREMELY long ranges and wouldnt think anything about taking a 75-80 yard shot. so i think it is your personal desicion adn know that you could wound that animal and never find it. i personally wouldnt shoot at a deer past 50 yards but again taht is just me.

[Doc]

i think if you are that good of a shot and are confident enough to shoot that far then do it. no one can tell you how far you can or cannot shoot, you are the one that has to make up your mind and just know. i have shot with people that shouldnt be shooting at anything past 5 yards, but i have also shot with people who can shoot at EXTREMELY long ranges and wouldnt think anything about taking a 75-80 yard shot. so i think it is your personal desicion adn know that you could wound that animal and never find it. i personally wouldnt shoot at a deer past 50 yards but again taht is just me.

I think most are missing the whole point I am trying to make. let me try to illustrate by relating a little story about one of my co-workers from a bunch of years back. This guy got into archery in a big way. He started off buying a top-of-the-line bow and top shelf accessories. And then he started practicing .... and practicing ..... and practicing. The man was driven. It turned out that he had tons of natural ability to go along with his intense dedication. There was absolutely no problem keeping arrows inside a coffee cup sized target at 50 yards ...... everytime. So, his first year of hunting came along and he proceeded to wound and not recover 5 deer in a row. There were others that were clean misses. The sorry tales varied from something that sounded like some variety of buck-fever to deer that took a couple of steps as the arrow was released to some versions of string jumping and even a case of deflection from a small branch that was too far out to be seen at that distance. And on and on the season went. The story was always the same. A 40 or 50 yard shot, which he had made hundreds (maybe thousands) of times without deviation on the shooting range. But he could not transfer that accuracy and archery-range control of conditions into hunting conditions. He finished out that first year with no archery deer. He just refused to let them come within 20 or 30 yards, and was firmly convinced that since he could make the 50 yard shot on the range, he absolutely should not trust in the fact that he had the skills to get closer. I wish I could say that he had a change of heart the following year, but unfortunately the stories of his wounding record continued simply because he did not see the additional requirements that hunting conditions put on us. Today, I hear the same stories of attempted long shots from different people and most of them come with the same wounding episodes. Sometimes the deer are recovered, sometimes not, but seldom are they hit with that same degree of accuracy that they experienced on the range.

It's a simple concept. In one situation (the archery range) you have all conditions under control including the target. In the other situation (hunting), you are at the mercy of the elements, natural obstructions (seen or unseen), a living, breathing, target that seldom poses nicely at exact ranged yardages, and also some level of increased excitement on the shooter's part. Somewhere in the formula, all that stuff has to be accounted for. About the only thing you can do to adjust for all these new variables is to compensate with shorter shot distances. Too many people don't.

Doc

[The_Kat]

If bambi walked out at 100 yards and I felt comfortable I'd take the shot.........

[Tony]

I think most are missing the whole point I am trying to make. let me try to illustrate by relating a little story about one of my co-workers from a bunch of years back. This guy got into archery in a big way. He started off buying a top-of-the-line bow and top shelf accessories. And then he started practicing .... and practicing ..... and practicing. The man was driven. It turned out that he had tons of natural ability to go along with his intense dedication. There was absolutely no problem keeping arrows inside a coffee cup sized target at 50 yards ...... everytime. So, his first year of hunting came along and he proceeded to wound and not recover 5 deer in a row. There were others that were clean misses. The sorry tales varied from something that sounded like some variety of buck-fever to deer that took a couple of steps as the arrow was released to some versions of string jumping and even a case of deflection from a small branch that was too far out to be seen at that distance. And on and on the season went. The story was always the same. A 40 or 50 yard shot, which he had made hundreds (maybe thousands) of times without deviation on the shooting range. But he could not transfer that accuracy and archery-range control of conditions into hunting conditions. He finished out that first year with no archery deer. He just refused to let them come within 20 or 30 yards, and was firmly convinced that since he could make the 50 yard shot on the range, he absolutely should not trust in the fact that he had the skills to get closer. I wish I could say that he had a change of heart the following year, but unfortunately the stories of his wounding record continued simply because he did not see the additional requirements that hunting conditions put on us. Today, I hear the same stories of attempted long shots from different people and most of them come with the same wounding episodes. Sometimes the deer are recovered, sometimes not, but seldom are they hit with that same degree of accuracy that they experienced on the range.

It's a simple concept. In one situation (the archery range) you have all conditions under control including the target. In the other situation (hunting), you are at the mercy of the elements, natural obstructions (seen or unseen), a living, breathing, target that seldom poses nicely at exact ranged yardages, and also some level of increased excitement on the shooter's part. Somewhere in the formula, all that stuff has to be accounted for. About the only thing you can do to adjust for all these new variables is to compensate with shorter shot distances. Too many people don't.

Doc

i know a few guys like this. i used to work in a archery shop and i have just about seen it all. the speed nut who cant shoot 6 inch groups at 20 yards to the heavy poundage guy that can barely shoot 8 inch groups at 20. one guy bought a bow from a garage sale and came in for arrows. the draw length was 4 inches to long for him. his accuracy was horrible. i tried to tell him that it was to long, but he just thought i wanted to sell him a new bow.

what i tried to do was teach them shooting form and shot execution and keep there gear tuned properly. its not my place to tell someone that if they shoot bad at 20, that they shouldnt shoot at a deer at 30. its up to the person to decide that for themselves. i would try to steer them down the path to only taking shots they know they can make.

but theres that thing again how does the bowhunter know at what distance a shot is such a gimme that he wont screw it up? according to you, if he wounds a deer at 40 yards, he has no bowhunting skills and should let that deer walk in closer. but what if he messed that shot up? do you tell him he has no skills as a shooter and and tell him let them come in another 10 yards?

i wonder where some of you stand on how far a shots some of the legends of bowhunting took. Fred Bear, Ben Pearson and Ted Nugent have taken many shots over 60 yards with a bow and no doubt some of them got away.

do you tell these guys that there" long-range bow hunting to be a failure of hunting skills"?

im very aware of my skills as bowhunter, i just dont judge what other people should or shouldnt do.

Tony

[backwoodsbowhunter]

long shots

i feel shooting pass 45 yds is a waste of a hunt your out there with a bow to see how close of a shot you can get, its not about trying to shoot as far as a gun that takes away the purpose of a "BOW hunter" who agrees?

[Doc]

i know a few guys like this. i used to work in a archery shop and i have just about seen it all. the speed nut who cant shoot 6 inch groups at 20 yards to the heavy poundage guy that can barely shoot 8 inch groups at 20. one guy bought a bow from a garage sale and came in for arrows. the draw length was 4 inches to long for him. his accuracy was horrible. i tried to tell him that it was to long, but he just thought i wanted to sell him a new bow.

what i tried to do was teach them shooting form and shot execution and keep there gear tuned properly. its not my place to tell someone that if they shoot bad at 20, that they shouldnt shoot at a deer at 30. its up to the person to decide that for themselves. i would try to steer them down the path to only taking shots they know they can make.

but theres that thing again how does the bowhunter know at what distance a shot is such a gimme that he wont screw it up? according to you, if he wounds a deer at 40 yards, he has no bowhunting skills and should let that deer walk in closer. but what if he messed that shot up? do you tell him he has no skills as a shooter and and tell him let them come in another 10 yards?

i wonder where some of you stand on how far a shots some of the legends of bowhunting took. Fred Bear, Ben Pearson and Ted Nugent have taken many shots over 60 yards with a bow and no doubt some of them got away.

do you tell these guys that there" long-range bow hunting to be a failure of hunting skills"?

im very aware of my skills as bowhunter, i just dont judge what other people should or shouldnt do.

Tony

You would hope that bowhunters would take wounded game as a serious problem, and that they would do their best to be honest in their assessment of their abilities. You would also hope that they would understand that shooting under hunting conditions is not the same as shooting on a target range. You would hope that they would not over estimate their equipment and under-estimate the devastating effects of a deer taking a single, casual step while a long distace shot is in the air.

In reality, I think we all know somebody who does not understand or appreciate these things. Personally, I am not terribly shy about speaking up and reminding people of those things. I don't see it as telling them how far to shoot. I see it as supplying reminders of things to think about when they are performing an honest self assessment of their shot selection. I think it is much better to try to get people to think of these things ahead of time rather than having them wounding dozens of deer while they experimentally try to figure it all out. You are never going to avoid all mishaps and wounded or lost game. However there are ways of putting the odds greatly in your favor. Shot distance is one of the things that everybody has control over. By putting a greater emphasis on getting close rather than putting an emphasis on how long of a shot you can make, chances are that the wounding incidents will be minimized. At least that's what makes sense to me.

Doc

[shedhead]

it dont matter how big the buck or bull is. anything over 60 yards is very unethical if anybody in my hunting group did that they woundnt be hunting with me anymore.