VtBowhunter Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 I attended a board meeting with 650 other hunters from the area to give our opinions of the upcoming law changes to deer hunting in Vermont. The proposed antler restriction calls for only 3 zones to be tested K2, J1, and B. The restriction would be any buck that forks on one side is legal. They want to stop the killing of so many spike horns. Currently spike horns make up 65% of the annual buck kill. The other issue is the proposed statewide restriction that will allow for only 1 buck per hunter per year. Currently hunters are allowed to kill 3 bucks per year. The overwhelming public opinion is that the Antler restriction be placed Statewide or don't bother and everyone loves the idea of 1 buck per hunter. For those of you that don't hunt Vermont, we have the weakest antlered deer in the country and the weakest herd in the country. This is somewhat dumbfounding for Vermonters as we can look to the west and see New York's herd, look to the East and see New Hampshire's healthy herd, to the North we have Canada (enough said), and even to the south where Mass. has great deer health. Why is it that we are surrounded by excellent deer hunting, yet we don't get to enjoy it ourselves? I'm waiting eagerly to see what will happen in the near future as all changes to the law will be put into effect immediately for the 2005 season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I have to agree with you Vtbowhunter. I come to Vermont once or twice a year to visit my in-laws in Benson. I always say how strange it is not to see deer in the fields at dusk when we travel. One thing I did notice was the high coyote population east of Benson Good luck Ranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdoc Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting personally I don't see a difference between a spike and a fork horn--if they are going to do an antler restriction both the spike and fork horn should be protected---90% of spikes and forkhorns are 1.5 year old bucks. todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horst Posted February 19, 2005 Report Share Posted February 19, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting [ QUOTE ] personally I don't see a difference between a spike and a fork horn--if they are going to do an antler restriction both the spike and fork horn should be protected---90% of spikes and forkhorns are 1.5 year old bucks. [/ QUOTE ] Good point Doc.But if 65% of the deer killed every year are actually spikes, wouldnt that mean that at least 65% of the the deer would get to live to see another year?I agree with what your saying but this would seem to me to cut down significantly on the number of 1.5 yr old deer killed every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I've been hunting in Vermont for 18 consecutive seasons. I agree that the deer herd is absolutely horrendous. If it weren't for the fact that I love Vermont and the mountains I would never hunt there again. My Dad has been hunting up there for over 30 years now and even he is ready to call it quits up there. I hope they do something. I'd love to see antler restrictions and only 1 buck per hunter per year for a 5 year period. Also stop all doe permits for a couple years. I think the Fish and Game should definitely do something drastic. I'm sure the state is taking a big hit in the wallet. I don't see half the hunters I used to see up there years ago and the last couple of years I haven't run into any hunters in the woods during rifle season. That's RARE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Figures they would start the meetings in the southern part of the state, they won't be up this way until the 24th. But hey it's the deer herd that counts....and from what vtbowhunter says they are off to a good start, and you bet darn tooten I'll be at the one on the 24th. since my zone is one of the ginny pig test tube zones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Do away with shooting does? Absolutely not!!!!!! Part of the problem is that out Buck to doe ratio is way way to far out of whack. We need to thin the does out which will balance the ratio and leave more food for the remaining deer and the bucks won't have to breed so many does and starve to death in the winter because their fat storage is so far depleted. Luke, make sure you sign up to speak when you get to the meeting so you'll have your 2 minutes to speak your mind. As I've said, the overwhelming majority (95%) that have spoke at these meetings want the restriction throughout the state or not at all and I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Yes I firmly believe that Does need to be protected for a while. I don't know where in Vermont you hunt. But there is less than 1 YES 1 deer per.sq. mile where I hunt. The state of Vermont can hold a bigger deer herd than what's there. I do see more does than bucks in VT for sure but, to help the herd grow back to what it used to be than Does need to be protected. 1 Buck will service many Does but with allowing doe permits you are prohibiting the herd from growing. I'm not saying stop shooting all does. Let the archers take a doe, and maybe let the youth hunters take a doe. That's it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I will definately be signing up for my 2 min. This absolutely should be state wide......as for protecting the Doe herd I see a need for it.....The ratio I am seeing here in the Northern part of the state is like 6 to 1 or better....but I do agree with Youth Weekend being a Doe hunt not a Buck hunt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting VermontHunter, please give me an update on what happens at the meeting. I'm very interested. I won't be up to Vermont again till May and I'm definitely out of the loop. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting No prob....be glad to, and Im sure vtbowhunter will be giving updates as they come in also.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Huntr104, where abouts do you hunt up here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I hunt in Stockbridge and Rochester. We rent a cabin in Rochester on Corporation Road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I went and did a little research on that area and found that the only mention of 1 deer per square mile was in the reporting of bucks. 1.23 bucks per square mile were reported in the county, that doesn't mean that there are no deer there. It just means that there weren't many taken there. I will say that there probably isn't a large number of deer there due to the large numbers of bear and moose in that part of the state. I will continue to hold fast to the idea that leaving doe numbers unchecked with do absolutely no good, and will, in fact, do more harm. For the sake of argument, let's say that there are 2 bucks in a square mile (based on buck kill reports) but there are a vastly larger number of does. These 2 bucks are now responsible for breeding all these does. By the time the breeding season is over, the bucks have burned off all their fat storage for energy and are now faced with having to find forage fast to build the fat back up for the winter ahead. Generally speaking they have almost no time to do it in and then the harsh winter hits. These 2 bucks will most likely starve to death and now you have to hope that the does that were bred don't abort the fawns due to lack of nutrience, and that some of the fawns born are bucks. On top of that you have to hope that a few bucks born a year earlier survived to carry on the breeding. Now you have 1.5 year old bucks breeding the does and they have less of a chance to survive the winter ahead. Bottom line: To ensure that the buck numbers increase, more does have to be taken out of the equation so the bucks that are doing the breeding have to do far less work and burn off far less fat in the process so they will survive the winters. I will say that the muzzleloader tags for does have to stop, since they are already pregnant when the season starts it does no good to remove them from the herd. However bowhunters have to take more does and leave the buck hunting for rifle season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Very good point Vtbowhunter. I will agree that the doe to buck ratio needs to be close. Unfortunately in the area I hunt the deer numbers are way down. Yes, as a matter of fact I do see more moose than deer. When I set up my Deer Cam I get probably 10 moose pics to every 1 deer pic. 1 out of 3 guys in our group usually take 1 deer per season. That's our average, although none of us shot a deer in 2004. I did see 8 does in Archery season though and None in rifle season. It's probably been 3 years at least since the last Rack I've seen. Bottom line is that I'd like to see the herd rebound to what it used to be when I was a kid. The land can support a larger herd no doubt. Something needs to be done for sure, and if they are going to come up with antler restrictions then they should do it statewide. On another note. In the last few years I've noticed that the areas where the moose have moved in the deer seem to have moved out. You ever notice this? and if so why do you think that is? I've herd of a parasite that's transmitted between the two. I did some of my own research and this is what I came up with from the VT Fish and Game website for 2003 totals. No Reports were given for 2004 that I saw. Rochester 2003 KILLS Archery 2 Youth 2 Rifle 14 Muzzleloader 2 Total 20 Rochester Bucks per sq. mile .26 Deer per sq. mile .37 Stockbridge 2003 KILLS Archery 1 Youth 1 Rifle 18 Muzzleloader 2 Total 22 Bucks per sq. mile .41 Deer per sq. mile .51 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Moose and deer tend to eat the same things and if you were a deer, would you fight with a bull moose for food? I am happy to see that the numbers of moose tags has increased greatly over the past few years, so with any luck this will help reduce the moose and bring back some deer. What type of woods do you hunt in? Open hardwoods, evergreens, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 22, 2005 Report Share Posted February 22, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Primarily Hardwoods. Last season I hunted travel routes more than food sources even in early archery. The oak flat i usually hunt had very few acorns, there weren't many beech nuts and the apple crop was poor also. How hard has your winter been so far this year? Is the winter mortality rate going to be high again this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTbowman Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I am unfortunatley not going to be able to attend a meeting but I am releived about vtbowhunters report about the support for the cahnges. I agree with what is propoesd. I would like to see it statewide. Althought I see why it has to be just 3 areas. The areas are spread out and it will give a sample of the state as a whole. It will show the buck/antler sizes in the areas choosen vs. the areas not choosen. I just think it opens the door for illegal activity. How easy would it be for someone to shoot a spike in area B and say they got it in area C. JMO I agree with DogDoc and Horst. Spikes and 4 ptrs are basically 1.5 year old deer. I agree the restriction should include 4 pts. But you got to start somewhere. One step at a time. I am hoping that the states hunters will see the benifits and vote for higher restrictions and wider areas in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 24, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting The winter hasn't been too bad so far but we just keep getting more snow and I don't like the looks of things if it continues much longer. Part of the reason you're not seeing the numbers of deer that you have in the past is that the area may be approaching an old growth state and there's little to no browse for them to sustain themselves on, so the deer have moved on to an area where the growth is much younger and the browse is more readily available.......just a thought. Dave, I have been doing so much research into this stuff that my head is spinning, lol. It amazes me just how a subtle change to an area can have a vast affect on the herd. It really doen't take a genious to see how doe numbers in great amounts hurt the herds, it just takes an open mind to see it. Unfortunately too many hunters are blinded by their anger at not seeing deer and they think more fawns will be the answer so they want the does protected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Well with the last 2 meetings now complete the opinions are chimming in.....this is the word so far as to what local hunters would like to see... 1. 1 buck per year / 2 does 2. 1 deer per year Doe/Buck with weapon of choice 3. state wide antler restriction atleast 2pt. on one side 4. moving ML season to fallow Bow and preceed rifle with NO December hunting. Remember this is from 2 of 5 meetings our area is next on the list for Thurs. 7pm at Bellows Free Acadamey. This could get real interesting before the last 3 meetings are concluded. I just hope that these meetings that are being held to get hunters opinions aren't a smoke screen and the DNR just go ahead and do what they want in the end........we'll have to wait and see. I will be at Thurs. meeting to hear what is being said in person. Things here have to change, if not the deer herd pay's the consequences in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huntr104 Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting I'd love to see Muzzleloader Season right after bow season. That'd be great Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherguy Posted February 24, 2005 Report Share Posted February 24, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Hey, just one thing to add about your deer moose competition discussion. Deer are actually bad for moose. Deer carry brainworm which is harmless to them but fatal to moose. Currently we have too many deer and they are really hurting our moose herd. As far as forage, it is highly unlikely the moose are eating all the deers food. If that were the case the moose would be eating themselves out as well and their population would decline. Ehat i have heard from a few vermonters is that too much of the forest is being allewed to reach an overmature stage and there is a serious lack of undergrowth and forage at ground level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Fisherguy, you're right, the land is not being cleared anough and now Vermont is an old growth state. As for moose and deer.......moose can and do hurt deer forage. Look at it this way. Deer, turkeys, and moose are eating forage at lower levels (closer to the ground) then winter hits. Now the deer have nothing to feed on, but the moose are large enough to reach up higher and get to that browse.......see the problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtBowhunter Posted February 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Well. last night was the last of the deer meetings for public input before the board votes in April. All reports point to the hunters in this state saying 1 buck per hunter per year for a while and they want the antler restrictions statewide or not at all. Now all we can do is sit back, cross our fingers, and hope they think about that when the time comes to vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VermontHunter Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 Re: Vermont\'s board meeting Needless to say that last nights meeting of 500+ got pretty heated as I thought it would.... I didn't get to attend as I wanted to but I got bogged down here with work, but had 2 very close friends that were in attendance and they reported back to me today, and the word from them was that there were quite few that got out of hand with thier statements and most were definately ferious to the fact that our Northern Region was being singled out on the antler restristion which most of feel should be state wide as vtbowhunter has already stated, the response to 1 buck a year proposal was met with mostly open arms and the moving of ML season to follow Bow season was also met with a good result... Now like my Vermont counter part ( vtbowhunter ) , has also stated, it a waiting game to see what comes of these meeting and the input of the population of Vermont's hunters.....I hope they listened and learned and take us seriously.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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