Pics: The genius of AR in Pennsylvania.......

[Strut10]

The idea of AR (antler restrictions) in PA was to increase the number of animals in the older age classes. I believe it was to give a better age cross-section for breeding purposes.

Here's next year's breeders on the Strut10 Ranch. Now.........bear in mind that the hunting is closely monitored and regulated on the ranch. Not everybody in PA has got it as good as we do on the Strut10 Ranch.

[PotashRLS]

If they make it to 3 1/2 or 4 1/2, they will likely go on your wall. If they were dead, they won't.

[dbHunterNY]

At my parent's farm the deer are heavily hunted and everything is setup to the point where a buck has to be completely noctural to survive the season. We're putting even more antler restrictions for the property. The buck has to have three points or more on one side. Not most theoretically sound management tool, but it's a starting point anyway. Good luck with the herd.

[Hoyt03]

you would be surprised to see what those crap racks can become at 2.5 yr old. AR are really working down here. Bucks at 2.5 down here have decent rack and smarten up real quick leading to more and more that make it to 3.5. Now for the doe harvest i'm not completely sold on all of that yet, but i'm liking AR more and more every year.

[Tominator]

Have you seen any difference (good or bad) since the AR Don?

[Strut10]

Have you seen any difference (good or bad) since the AR Don?

In my entire hunting career, before AR, (that would have been about 25 years of hunting) I can count on one hand the number of spike bucks I had ever seen. Since about the 2nd or 3rd year of AR, I've seen more than that each year. Now.......I know that "once a spike, always a spike" is complete trash. But when, in one season, you have no less than 5 bucks on a small tract of ground that are 2 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old and are all 6-pointers (and not eligible to be harvested)..........you've got problems.

AR has done nothing here to improve the herd or the hunting unless a 90"-100" buck is a trophy to you. There are a few more 2 1/2 year deer being harvested and some of those may be trophies to someone. Nothing has been or ever will be accomplished to produce more "book bucks" and anyone with the power to reason coulda told you that before AR started.

What AR has done (and continues to do) is to artificially preserve the crappiest genetics in the herd.

This ain't a 1 1/2 year deer. He's sowing his seeds among my doe herd. There's less and less guarantee each year that a crappy young buck will turn out any differently than this guy did.

[jm23494]

I have to agree with Hoyt03. We have been starting to see a good turn around of scrub bucks into nice looking deer. Granted you are always going to have some genetic problems with the herd but there is little you can do to completley rid it. All of the deer you have pictured look to be 1-1/2 year olds at most with their first rack growth. Give them two years and see what they do. I know that the 145 acres that my family is starting to manage has about 7 or so bucks that are in the age range of 1-1/2 to 2-1/2 and made it through this years season. I'm hoping that they make it throught he winter because there were several of them that had some real potential to be 120+ inch deer.

[doubledrop]

you could turn some genetic problems into alot of genetic problems if you ask me. Just my opinion though. i would probably shoot most of them mistaking them for a doe anyways.

[Doc]

Man, that's quite a collection of scraggley-looking bucks. You wouldn't have a landfill or nuclear power plant nearby would you?

Doc

[ruttinbuc]

Man, that's quite a collection of scraggley-looking bucks. You wouldn't have a landfill or nuclear power plant nearby would you?

Doc

I was thinking maybe its was the ground water.... or the Gary Alt curse!:pop:

Whatever the case I would cease killing bucks period for a year or two and see what develops.

[cb11]

you could turn some genetic problems into alot of genetic problems if you ask me. Just my opinion though. i would probably shoot most of them mistaking them for a doe anyways.

My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't ruin my herd over their stupid rule. I'm all for maintaining a herd, but the whole point is to 'maintain' a healthy herd and to weed out the bad genes. Those new rules don't let you guys do that, you're stuck having to let everything walk and thats bad any way you look at it.

[TN Bucknasty]

In a perfect world, we could have age restrictions instead of antler restrictions. I don't think that any of us are under any illusions about that happening in a macro-management scheme in any state.

Speaking about genetics, the current research is showing that the female segment of the herd is at the very least equally responsible for "good" and "bad" antler characteristics. Some studies are even showing that the does play a more significant role than the bucks do. It's sort of like how a man's receding hairline often comes from a gene carried by his mother.

As far as liberalizing the doe harvest, I don't buy into that at all in areas where deer density is not a problem. I think that those types of policies are farmer driven in much of the country. Here in TN, they have decided to allow 3 does to be taken per day for the duration of the season. The TWRA has convinced many people that killing does makes your bucks bigger and that our herd has become over populated. I agree that in a few scattered, isolated pockets, the population could use some thinning. Outside of that, I think we've done more damage than good. This management plan has been in affect for two years now, and now everyone is griping because they aren't seeing many deer at all. On our farm, our sex ratios were very balanced in 2007. Last year we saw nearly 2 bucks for every doe and this year, I hunted every day during the month of December seeing a grand total of 7 deer. In 2007 I saw 47 and did not hunt every day. We're not killing them off, but our neighbors on all sides are convinced that doe slaughter is the way to grow bigger bucks. By the way, they're not even using the meat. They just cut out the backstraps and dump them in a ditch. :poke:

[PotashRLS]

I am not looking for an argument but the readings that I have done have concluded that genetic culling is nearly impossible in a free ranging deer herd. It is also nearly impossible to be effective/accurate at it when targeting 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks. And yes TNBucknasty, I also saw where 60% of the bucks antler genetics comes from the matriarch doe. Most genetic issues stem from too many deer.

[Doc]

I am not looking for an argument but the readings that I have done have concluded that genetic culling is nearly impossible in a free ranging deer herd. It is also nearly impossible to be effective/accurate at it when targeting 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 year old bucks. And yes TNBucknasty, I also saw where 60% of the bucks antler genetics comes from the matriarch doe. Most genetic issues stem from too many deer.

My reading pretty much is the same as what you have found. Genetic selection is a bit of art and science combined, and is really only effectively done by those trained in the area of genetics. Also, it is something that is only truly effective in captive animals (as in farm animals). Also when you add in the genetic contributions of the does, you have to wonder what all this talk about genetic selection in a wild herd is all about. Further, you have to really wonder about the abilities of the average hunter in terms of recognizing poor genetics, and the ages of deer. Undoubtedly that is why PA opted for the antler point count (rightly or wrongly). It is the one thing that can be readily observed and understood as a do-able restriction. Does it really work? ....... Well it seems to depend on which PA hunter you talk to. I've read articles where the PGC has patted themselves on the back and boasted about how their program is a raving success. I'm not sure that they are the most unbiased of observers .... lol. But apparently there is a wide divergence of opinion even yet.

Doc

[Missilelock]

But when, in one season, you have no less than 5 bucks on a small tract of ground that are 2 1/2 to 6 1/2 years old and are all 6-pointers (and not eligible to be harvested)..........you've got problems.

My bet would be that 20 years ago you would have never saw 5 bucks on that samr tract of land.... I dont agree with the amount of doe being harvested, but 20 years ago, I was just happy to see a buck to shoot...any buck, Now I see several a year & at least usually find something 2.5-3.5 years old. Like you, Im not being over run with booners, but that may be the tradeoff for not living in Iowa.

[Hoyt03]

to add something else most of those bucks with the tiny spikes were late born as fawn thus making them younger when they grow their first rack which results in the small spikes. It just takes them a little longer to catch up. If 120" deer is not a trophy to you and you live in PA your expectations are a little high. There aren't any kind of regulations that's going to turn PA into Iowa.

Take a look at the hunting PA forums there were definitely some nice bucks bucks taken all over the place this year.

[mallard_drake85]

from the pictures, all those bucks are yearlings or 1 1/2 year old bucks...you should be proud to see that many bucks on your property because that means that the antler restrictions are working and keeping young bucks alive which is the key to harvesting bigger bucks. you'll never know unless you let them grow! seeing 1 1/2 year old spikes and fork horns is a good thing, and the AR's are installed to protect these bucks from being hunted and that means that they are working!

for example, last night while hunting, I had a 1 1/2 year old 8 point standing broadside at 30 yards. we do not have antler restrictions here in Illinois. though he met 2 of our personal goals of 4 points on one side and 16" inside spread (the 3rd goal is must be 3 1/2 years of age), i knew that he was only a year and half...so I let him walk. was the decision tough? no not at all because i know that doing so gives him the chance to grow up into a nice Pope and Young buck...state record? probably not, but he'll be a dandy because i chose not to release an arrow!

any type of restriction or restraints will work, but you have to give them ample time to...you cannot expect AR's to work in a year or even two...but they do work.

just my 3 cents

[treeinwalker]

If they make it to 3 1/2 or 4 1/2, they will likely go on your wall. If they were dead, they won't.

+1

[Doc]

Not to get too side-tracked, but I noticed that of the pictures provided, half were just normal spikes (most likely will grow into normal racks in subsequent years), but the other half were one antlered and a bit goofy looking at that. Does anyone know whether these will ever balance out in future years, or will their antlers always be screwed up in one way or another. In other words, is that a sign of bad genetics that will continue on into adulthood and possibly be passed on to future generations? Does anyone know?

Doc

[joeaveragehunter]

I think too much emphasis is placed on genetics. Are we to believe that buffalo county wisconsin has magical genetics that stop at the county lines? Are there fairies and pixie dust that create the 200 inch deer that pops up in northern wisconsin every year? Or does it have more to do with a deer that was given time to grow in a place that offers ample nutrition with low stress? I think the latter is more probable. AR just allows one of those criteria to be met. While reading about deer farmers and how they grow big racks in pens, all of them say removing stress from a deers life is the single biggest factor in reaching its potential. Having too many does and stretching out the rut for months instead of one or two short intense ruts create an immense amount of stress on all the bucks. Sit back and enjoy those deer on your property.

[Strut10]

This is a 1 1/2 year old buck, too (jawbone aged).

Am I to be lead to believe that he is not in posession of better genes than this guy (who, outwardly, appears to be at least 2 1/2 if not more)??

I was born at night........but it wasn't last night.

[Tominator]

I was born at night........but it wasn't last night.

But you fell off the pickle wagon last night, didn't you?

So what's the answer Don? Would you like to see a different management scheme or just do away with AR altogether?

There are some big deer taken in the eastern part of Ohio every year. I just have to believe it's a management issue that PA has. I'm not a proponent of AR, I'm just asking the question because I'm wondering what the difference between Ohio and Pennsylvania are. The terrain and agriculture base is about the same (at least in the eastern part of the state), but the quality of deer is substantially different.

[Strut10]

So what's the answer Don? Would you like to see a different management scheme or just do away with AR altogether?

There are some big deer taken in the eastern part of Ohio every year. I just have to believe it's a management issue that PA has. I'm not a proponent of AR, I'm just asking the question because I'm wondering what the difference between Ohio and Pennsylvania are. The terrain and agriculture base is about the same (at least in the eastern part of the state), but the quality of deer is substantially different.

They should never have messed with it. Aside from completely trashing the tradition of deer hunting in PA, there has been nothing accomplished..........except encouraging the removal a lot of good, quality bucks and artificially preserving the garbage.

If somebody in the Game Commission absolutely thinks that something has to be done in PA to save bucks, then shorten the season by a week. If the buck/doe ratio is so unacceptable, then issue the doe tag with the general license and make the buck tag on a draw (instead of vice versa as it is now).

I think a big part of the reason that Ohio has bigger bucks is the "shotgun only" deal. I also think (just from what I've seen when driving through) there may be more posted land in Ohio. Can't say that for sure, though.

[Strut10]

If 120" deer is not a trophy to you and you live in PA your expectations are a little high.

Why???

We wer basically promised by Alt before this plan was inserted in our hineys that we'd all be seeing mature deer in every brushpile in 2-3 years' time.

A lot of folks have forgotten how this plan was marketed a-way back then.

I was just talking to a good buddy today who was all gun-ho when the Alt plan started. Bear in mind that this is a guy whose house Dr. Charles Alsheimer stays at when he's in town. Today my buddy told me that he didn't see that the plan had done anything. He also said "Charlie told me it'd never work".

That's what you'll have when you take a mediocre bear biologist, put him in charge of managing deer and ignore all public input. That's what we got.

[strutstopper]

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