At what point...

[Adjam5]

At what point is hunting hunting and not marksmanship?

Reason I ask is...

I was flipping channels today and came across Western Extreme hunting with Jim Burnworth. They were setting up on large round hay bales in Nebraska with a .50 BMG bolt gun, about to shoot a Mule deer at 987 yards. They didn't get to shoot it. It got up and took off with a doe. I got disgusted and turned the channel.

To me, that is NOT hunting... that is accurate shooting if successful. I know there is great skill involved in making a shot at that distance. But is it hunting?

OK, I have seen some shots at Sheep and Rams on TV in the 2-400 yard range. But to shoot something almost a quarter mile away, I feel is NOT sporting, but exceptional shooting.

Does the deer have the same chance as a hunter taking the shot at say... 150 yards across a corn field? Or does shooting an animal at that distance take away the sport of it all? They are not meat hunting,they are filming a TV show.

As a bowhunter, I enjoy getting close and I think beating the animal in his own living room is a greater accomplishment than shooting it from another zip code.

What say you?

[mike]

i guess whats the difference between 150 yds and a 1000yds really, in a blkind they cant see you. sporting to me is archery hunting, where you have to set up and get close, out smart the game so to speak. but opinions very

[92xj]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=definition+of+hunting&aq=f&oq=&aqi=l1g3

You hunt your way, they hunt theirs.

[ruttinbuc]

I couldn't agree more Anthony! Makes you wonder where it is all headed sometimes. This is shooting in my mind. The game is so far removed it is ridiculous. A few years ago I saw some long range shooting at deer on the internet. It was one of those "watch this, how cool is that?" type of things. I guess it has a following now, sadly.

There seems to be a never ending need for one upmanship on some of these shows. Jim Burnworth comes off this way. A couple od shows have him far removed from actual hunting. Either showing off his classic car collection or the gazillion dollar camera and studio he uses. I am taking it that he just showing off another toy once again...

[buckee]

I understand exactly what you mean. I feel that the definition must lie somewhere between making the shot (whatever the distance), and what actual hunting you had to do, before you got there.

eg. - Sheep & goat hunters, have to do some pretty exhaustive & exciting hiking, and spotting, before they ever come to that point of taking the shot.

on the other hand

a guy drives along, stops every now and then to glass the countryside. He finally spots a buck across the valley 450 yrds away. He's a good shot at long distances, and settles in for the shot. He makes it good, and down goes the buck.

There certainly wasn't much "HUNTING" talent involved, but there was definitely some "shooting" talent there.

I really don't want to say, "it's not hunting" because for a lot of people, that's about the only style of hunting they get. And as long as they are following all the laws, then..hey..good shootin.

For me however, I have never liked that sort of hunting. I think the furthest shot I ever made was 125 yrds, with a 30/30, and although I dropped the deer in it's tracks, there was something missing.

All my life, I have liked "UP Close & Personal" when it comes to hunting, whether I still hunt my way toward the end, or do my homework, get my stand/stands located in the right spots, and wait em out. The anticipation of spending a lot of time in the woods or field, in the hope of seeing more than just the game I am after, is what makes it hunting to me.

HUNTING : Hunting is the practice of pursuing living animals (usually wildlife) for food, recreation, or trade

To sum it up...Hunting to me, is everything I do before I get to that final moment of making the shot. If all there was to it, was making the perfect shot, then I would rather be a Dart player.. JMO

Pursuing or Pursuit is the key word here. No pursuit, no hunt.

Edited January 12, 2010 by buckee

[mike]

my question is then at what yardage do you feel is hunting compared to shooting? i mean if you are 150 yrds away you wont be seen or winded so why not 1000 yrds? good question anthony, i can't wait to see more opinions!!

[camoman1]

Not the type of hunting that I would want to do, thats for sure. I am with Buckee....I enjoy everything that leads up to the shot just as much as I do walking up and putting my hands on a critter I've taken. Scouting, trying to find that right stand spot to get them close, even those days where you see a good deer, but just cant get the shot...I love that stuff!!

If all I did was flop out of my truck and pull the trigger, or perch on a hillside like a sniper shooting at things I cant even see without looking through a scope...I dont think I would enjoy that.

These guys get an A+ from me for marksmanship, but they arent showing me any hunting skills. Its archery for me..I do go out with the shotgun for deer once in a while.

[GWSmith]

I'm fairly sure the "Hunt" is where you, personally, find it.

For my self, in the areas I have hunted, it would be close to impossible to have a long shot due to the terrain.

With my closest shot being 5yds with a bow I know the intensity of having game close and having to bring it all together and make the shot happen.

I also had a hunting scenario where deer were entering a 600yd field from a steep hillside(private property). I had permission to hunt the field and the deer would concentrate near the hillside but in the middle. After hours of moving very slowly I got to the only cover in the field(an old wellhead).

Rangefinder said 364yds...I looked up the yardage, for that rifle, in my notebook.

All the same excitement level was there and it took every bit to bring myself to the level where I felt confident the shot was going to be deadly.

I re-ranged, checked the backround, held on my aimpoint and watched the deer fall in the scope.

Granted it's not the 900-1,000yd shots that some people make in places those shots can be taken...but the "Hunt" was in it for me and it accomplished what I set out to do.

[hammerforged]

I personally don't feel comfortable taking a shot on a game animal at anything over 150 yards. That is not to say that it cannot be done but as has been pointed out it requires a very competent marksman to make shots such as those over 150 yards. I know several such marksmen/women and to a person they do not consider long shots "hunting" but rather "shooting". When I talk to individuals who shoot prairie dogs, they say they are going "shooting" not "hunting". I make knives because with a knife it is "personal". I hunt hogs here in South Carolina, yes we use dogs to bay the hogs but then the hog is taken with a knife that I myself built, stupid? maybe but I have done it enough times to know my limits and I don't hunt them just for the sport, I eat what I take. Yes, it is a heck of a rush to wade in on a 135 lb hog that would like nothing better than to tear me a new one. Due to physical limitations I cannot hunt with a traditional bow, so I use a crossbow and I won't take a shot over 45 yards on a game animal with it because I don't feel, despite the hype out there that the weapon has any "Killing" power beyond 50 yards. To me hunting is about experiencing God in all his Glory and taking a few moments to stop and realize how small I really am. There is many a time that I have gone afield or astream and have come back without even pulling the trigger or wetting a line, I have still gone hunting or fishing on those outings. I just enjoyed a different type of harvest.

[stevebeilgard]

To me hunting is about experiencing God in all his Glory and taking a few moments to stop and realize how small I really am.

now that's just excellent.

i've killed a p&y caribou at under 10 yards and a full curl sheep at 850. they were both hunting to me and i can't hold one over the other. in the service i shot 10" groups at 1,000 yards weekly to daily. accuracy wasn't a problem. i haven't shot an animal since 1987, yet i go hunting every year, and i mean i hunt. i have just as good a time as when i carried a bow/rifle.

the bottom line is, hunting is a different level of feelings for each of us. when that feeling leaves me, i'll quit hunting. i think that will be the day i die;)

[buckee]

To me hunting is about experiencing God in all his Glory and taking a few moments to stop and realize how small I really am.

OK, you just said what I was trying to say in 5 paragraphs ...LOL;). I just think too dang hard sometimes...LOL:D

[RangerClay]

I think some people get a "rush/high" in the way they hunt for deer. For some it's dogs, for others it's getting close, for some it's BIG guns, for some it's being a sniper, for some it's going primative, and believe it or not, I believe some people poach deer just for the "rush". For me it's driving deer. I've heard plenty many say that driving deer isn't ethical either but it is legal and its they way we like to hunt deer.

Now I've seen this show a couple times and it doesn't do anything for me. I believe Jim B. is living out a some type of a sniper fantasy. It's legal so I just change the channel because it's not for me. But I'm sure that he wounds and loses more game than we are lead to believe on his TV show.

There are plenty of ways to kill deer and everyone of them will get its time on TV. If you don't like the show, change the channel.

[redkneck]

I know what you mean Anthony. Personally to me taking a 50 to hunt mule deer is like taking an '06 rabbit hunting, but to each his own. I guess if you're like Steve and have stacked a group like that at 1000 yards, then go for it. Longest shot I ever made was still under 200 yards, but then again, you don't find many shots over 100 where I hunt. As far as pursuit, I have shot deer walking to my stand, or from my stand. There was no pursuit, just I was on my toes and made the kill. That was definitely hunting to me, and there wasn't much pursuing for sure. One thing for sure I bet, for every 1000 yard shot you see on TV with a kill, there's prob one or two attempts that were cut from the final product that weren't so nice. I dont have a problem with shooting at any range on predators and varmints, but game animals deserve to be taken with a high percentage of success. If you can do that at 1000 yards, then go for it I suppose, albeit not really my cup of tea.

[Dawg]

I think some people get a "rush/high" in the way they hunt for deer. For some it's dogs, for others it's getting close, for some it's BIG guns, for some it's being a sniper, for some it's going primative, and believe it or not, I believe some people poach deer just for the "rush". For me it's driving deer. I've heard plenty many say that driving deer isn't ethical either but it is legal and its they way we like to hunt deer.

Now I've seen this show a couple times and it doesn't do anything for me. I believe Jim B. is living out a some type of a sniper fantasy. It's legal so I just change the channel because it's not for me. But I'm sure that he wounds and loses more game than we are lead to believe on his TV show.

There are plenty of ways to kill deer and everyone of them will get its time on TV. If you don't like the show, change the channel.

Making deer drives is the way I was brought into hunting. I loved it and still would do it today if the folks we hunted with didn't turn out to be outlaws. Now that I have quit going on drive hunts I hunt and have killed deer just like John describes below. All in all, both ways are hunting to me.

The shots that Jim B. makes are shots I will never be able to do around here and I don't have any desire to find a way to try it. Do I consider it hunting? I guess to a certain extent, yes. And then there's a part of me that says no. Like the others have said, it's all up to each person to decide what "style" of pursuing game they consider hunting.

I know what you mean Anthony. Personally to me taking a 50 to hunt mule deer is like taking an '06 rabbit hunting, but to each his own. I guess if you're like Steve and have stacked a group like that at 1000 yards, then go for it. Longest shot I ever made was still under 200 yards, but then again, you don't find many shots over 100 where I hunt. As far as pursuit, I have shot deer walking to my stand, or from my stand. There was no pursuit, just I was on my toes and made the kill. That was definitely hunting to me, and there wasn't much pursuing for sure. One thing for sure I bet, for every 1000 yard shot you see on TV with a kill, there's prob one or two attempts that were cut from the final product that weren't so nice. I dont have a problem with shooting at any range on predators and varmints, but game animals deserve to be taken with a high percentage of success. If you can do that at 1000 yards, then go for it I suppose, albeit not really my cup of tea.

[popgun]

At what point is hunting hunting and not marksmanship?

They didn't get to shoot it. It got up and took off with a doe.

Didn't you answer your own question?

They didn't get the shot they wanted.

The deer was not tied to a tree in a stationery position.

It is certainly a different way of hunting than I am capable of, or have the equipment to do, but still legal hunting.

They certainly had the capability and equipment to take the deer at that distance so what's the problem?

I don't watch any of the hunting shows any more. They all have just become infomercials.

A different style of hunting just seems to threaten many of us that don't choose to hunt the same way.

Do you really think they would have tried a shot like that without practicing first?

Oh yeah, everyone on this board who have taken deer at 250 yards or more has sent thousands of rounds down range at that distance first. Yeah, right.

....popgun

Edited January 12, 2010 by popgun

[texastrophies]

So in this thread we have a few examples of what different folks consider hunting. Deer drives, 5 yard shots, 850 yard shots, & I believe the originator of this thread has been showing some pics of a hunt he is going on shortly where the game is around a feeder. Each person does the type of hunt that they enjoy.

There were some comments about being fair to the game, then why use any weapon at all? If you want it fair, drop all the camo, scents, binos, range finders, weapons, stands, etc. and make it you against the animal... hand to hoof. Then that would be fair.

I believe a lot of you are trying to use your hunting method as an example for how they are hunting and it will not work. Trust me, if you go out west you will find out that the distances are deceiving. What looks like a couple hundred yards is usually closer to 500.

I am not saying that they couldn't get closer than 1000 yards on some of their animals, but that is not what the show is about. The two deer I killed this year, 1 was about 200 yard and the other was 273 yards. On the first one, I was spotted and most likely could not get any closer. The second one I spotted it about a 1/2 mile away and closed the distance to where I was undetected, but if I would have tried to get any closer I would have been without any cover at all. I have all my guns zeroed at 200 yards, and practice longer distances, why shouldn't I have taken the shot? Yes, I considered both of them "hunting"

Bottom line, just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it is wrong.

[dbHunterNY]

I think a question might be at what distance does the animal see you and not care. I know I've had deer see and hear me at about that distance and didn't care that I was there. Now if we all had .50 BMGs and shot that far it might, but in this circumstance me shooting it would not be hunting.

[buckee]

If you want it fair, drop all the camo, scents, binos, range finders, weapons, stands, etc. and make it you against the animal... hand to hoof. Then that would be fair.

Is it OK if I pack a knife?? :)

[Rhino]

I have to agree with the points texastrophies makes. Granted hunting any deer with a 50 BMG round is quite a bit of overkill but the original question opens up a hunter's opinion of what is really hunting. That really falls within a particular hunters opinion of what he/she prefers.

There are a lot of different twist to hunting. From deer drives, hunting with dogs, hunting over feeders, hunting over food plots, hunting over corn or soybean fields, long range shooting, spot & stalk, still hunting, treestands, ground blinds, and the list could go on.

To answer the original question...there really is no black and white answer.

[Rhino]

Is it OK if I pack a knife?? :)

Rumor has it you are bad to the bone with it!

[camoman1]

I guess my biggest issue with the situation that the original poster brought up is this. Anyone heading afield with a .50cal rifle obviously seem to be out there for the sole purpose of taking a long shot just to make a 'good' tv show.....is it 'hunting'...by definition, yes. I think there is a big difference in being able to shoot a maximum distance and going out specifically looking to shoot that far. I guarantee if that deer on the show was at 300yds...they would not have taken the shot.....that wouldnt be 'impressive' by there standards.

Another question....Think of the deer that you took that was the farthest away...now when you tell the story of the hunt, would you rather say the deer was twice as close or twice as far as it actually was??? ex. deer was 200yds, would you rather tell people you took him at 100yds or 400yds? And why?

(I am in no way trying to criticize rifle hunting or anything like that)

Edited January 12, 2010 by camoman1

[Ethan Givan]

As long as the method of hunting they are using is legal than I have no problem with it. However, I would have no satisfaction of taking an animal at the distance described in the original post. At those ranges you could jump up and down, wave your hands in the air, and have gasoline all over your clothes and that deer isnt going to care.

When I hunt I want the animal close enough to me that I have fool them. I want to disappear in their enviroment and make no mistakes. I dont want them to know im there, not because of distance but because I out smarted them. Thats what hunting is to me, but to each his own.

[Adjam5]

Didn't you answer your own question?

They didn't get the shot they wanted.

The deer was not tied to a tree in a stationery position.

It is certainly a different way of hunting than I am capable of, or have the equipment to do, but still legal hunting.

They certainly had the capability and equipment to take the deer at that distance so what's the problem?

....popgun

On that deer they didn't get the shot. The show was on again late last night and I watched it in its entirety. They did eventually get a shot at a deer at a 950+yard distance and it was efficiently killed, although he missed a shot prior at 700yards and change. In the show they mentioned that the .50BMG was Illegal in N.Dakota( not Nebraska, I had it wrong). So they went on an Indian reservation where it was OK to hunt with the .50BMG in that state. Indians have different rules. They found a loophole.

I myself have never shot a deer or any game for that matter further away than 80 yards. Even in Texas. Closest with a bow, 5 yards. Last year my first shot at an Axis was at 130-140 yards and I missed. When I did connect a few days later. I got closer to the feeder (80 yards) and made the shot. I understand that is how they hunt in areas where getting close is not an option and this is how its done. Never hunted feeders until Texas. That is how they do it.

Kill hand to hoof...Like Buckee did ? You da man Steve.

We do not have the olfactory senses like the game we hunt do. Indians way before scent lock, knew the value of staying scent free. You do not need any of that at 1000yards. Just a good scope and a gun with a good ballistic coefficient.

I did not say it was wrong. I asked if it was hunting and what others thought?

I guess if one was brought up around long distance shooting, it is as normal as anything else you grew up around and was exposed to. For me, having to get close due to the tremendous foliage I hunt in seems to be more of a challenge. That is me and where I hunt. Which is why I do not understand the shooting into another zip code for harvest. To each their own...I understand that.

I am enjoying reading others take on this and it is helping me understand this issue a little bit better.

[DocMort]

I feel that it is up to ones own definition. I can shoot accurately and consistently hit a just over moa at 500 yards with my 7mm and I am comfortable with it to that range, can consistently hit a 15 inch steel plate at 750 but that is not accurate enough to be shooting at creatures. Closest kill is 3 feet with a shot gun. She ran right at me after she winded me I was a little nervouse after that. Furthest kill was 450+ with a rifle.

Once again all personal preference. I don't believe in that at all with a 50 and shooting them like prairie dogs. Its no different than the guys on best of the west who shoot everything at 700 plus with a 6.5 284 or 7mm rem.

Edited January 12, 2010 by DocMort

[GWSmith]

Is it OK if I pack a knife?? :)

It's tougher than people think...but chicks dig Scars and glory with a Buck Knife lasts forever EH...