What Do You?

[FSU_Seminole]

Can someone explain to me what is the difference in sitting over a soybean field & sitting over a 5 acre plot of oats?

[redkneck]

Can someone explain to me what is the difference in sitting over a soybean field & sitting over a 5 acre plot of oats?

I think the oats tend to itch more.

[Goinghuntin]

I personally feel that technology is giving us humans way too much of an advantage and enabling us to allow our real hunting skills to erode.

I feel the same way about trail cameras. I'm not going to try to persuade someone who uses them to put the camera away, I just don't like the thought hat it gives me an unfair advantage of being able to find out where the deer are when I'm not physically there. I do all my scouting by foot, by preference. Now, if I didn't have as much time as I typically do, I could see and understand the argument.

I feel like I'm the only one here who thinks dog hunting is ethical but then again I grew up on up.

I don't feel as though it is unethical, after all we do use dogs for pheasant do we? But then again, with the dogs chasing the deer, that brings up once again the topic of shooting at a running deer

Nathan

[Goinghuntin]

Can someone explain to me what is the difference in sitting over a soybean field & sitting over a 5 acre plot of oats?

And my two cents on this topic is...

The soybean field was planted as an income for the farmer, and expressly so. It is nothing more than a sustenance for the deer. The food plot was planted with certain vitamins and minerals so as to grow trophy deer. Herd management, which I believe, either on a statewide or on a personal level, is wrong. No one managed the herds 200 years ago and they did fine. Nature has its ways of keeping everything even. Everything was much better before man stuck his nose into it :death: Just my thoughts on the matter.

Nathan

[ruttinbuc]

I agree with Rhino on the fence sitters shooting across lines as well as those using your work to their benefit. I also wonder why they call it hunting in states that allow baiting. This is one of the things that was TABOO way back when. It was unethical then. To me, it still is. I know in this state many would quit the effort if they actually had to hunt.

[Doc]

Come on Doc you can figure this one out. Deer are just like every other animal, they go to the best and easiest food sourse. If they can go to a big pile of corn, oats or bran for a quick easy meal why walk a mile to graze grass or twiggs.

I'm sure if baiting were illigal here that we would see as many deer as we do now with it.

Of course the quote that I was reacting to was : "Baiting is legal here on private land. Everyone does it. If you don't you won't see deer. Lots of guys won't hunt over it, but will admit if they don't bait, they don't see deer". Specifically that sentence about "If you don't you won't see deer". Which all makes it sound like there is something unique about those states that require bait in order to see deer. In spite of the confusing wording, I think I finally got your point about how once baiting is legalized, it forces everyone to bait. Yes, that sounds like one very strong argument against baiting.

Doc

[camoman1]

I personally dont care if people bait, I have a problem with the automatic feeders though....get off your butt and do it yourself!!!

The neighbors to the north of us got busted with literally tons of bait out ( 2 gallon legal limit here). Guess who filled more deer tags that year....not them. We have two plots on our lease (along w/ many acres of agriculture), a spring/summer plot designed to give Does the nutrition to aid in raising fawns. And we have a winter plot designed to give the deer some viddles that they dont need to dig out of 2 foot of snow. 2 deer have been shot out of these plots in the 4 years we have had them, both deer were firsts for each hunter.

For you against baiting, what are your thoughts on hunting over water?? (in warm weather obviously)

Technology....thats so broad as to what is considered Techy LOL

Compound bows, expandable broadheads, scent killing sprays (who knows if they even work lol), treestands, range finders, binoculars, rifle scopes, camoflauge clothes, decoys, manufactured scents, winter clothing.....etc. , etc.......these are all technological advancements in my opinion.

I aint running naked through the woods with a sharp stick to deer hunt.

[johnf]

I don't feel as though it is unethical, after all we do use dogs for pheasant do we? But then again, with the dogs chasing the deer, that brings up once again the topic of shooting at a running deer

Nathan

So how do you feel about dogs being run accross property lines. Or dogs chasing horses and cattle while running across property that they don't have permission to be on. That's one of the main issues in Arkansas where dogs are allowed. These "hunters" raise thier dogs all year, don't have any land or lease of thier own and let their dogs out to cross other peoples land and run the deer to them.

As for baiting, would those who are against it sit in an oak tree that was dropping it's acorns, would you build a mock scrape, would you put out estrus scent, do you carry a grunt call, or ratteling horns? It's all baiting.

[Rhino]

Just my $.02 on a couple of things.

1st...I don't have a problem at all with the use of trail cameras provided they aren't the kind that provide real time information. These real time trail cam's data can be reviewed in the field from a cell phone. These same cameras are the ones that break the rules of fair chase as defined by P&Y and B&C. All other trail cameras require the user to go in the field and pull the camra or memory card to download the data and review the pics taken since it was set.

From using trail cams for the past 6 years now, there's a common misconception by hunters that don't use them. If you get a pic of a buck one day there's no guarantee he'll be there the next. Chances are he won't. Hunters that don't use trail cams usually have a misconception that a particular deer is going to stay within a small area where the camera was set through the season. From using trail cams where I hunt our deer's home range varies from 3/4 mile to 3 miles. From my experience with MS deer the average is at least 1 1/2 miles. From one day to the next there's just no telling where a particular deer will be.

As a result of what I've learned from using trail cameras, I pick my stand positions at funnels and hubs. Same thing I did before I ever started using them. The only real advantage is I will know at a glance if a particular mature buck I've caught on camera comes into view as well as the younger bucks I choose to pass. Then again there's always those bucks that appear out of nowhere that never stepped in front of a camera before too. That happens a lot more than most people think that don't use trail cams.

BTW...2 of the 3 mature bucks I killed last fall were caught on camera. I killed the 1st one the 3rd day of bow season 1/2 mile away from the closest trail cam. Also, I didn't even know I had pics of him until I pulled the memory cards the next day. Essentially, you can't count him as being a buck I evev knew about before killing him. I killed the other mature buck caught on trail cam about 3/4 of a mile from where he last stepped in front of one. He was caught on camera at 2 different spots about 2 miles apart. The last time he was caught on a trail cam was Nov. 20th. I killed him on Dec. 31st.

2nd...the only difference I see between a soybean (or corn) field and a food plot is one is a cash crop and the other isn't. The soybean or corn field is a freebe to the hunter if he or she is not the farmer...the other isn't. Since when did a cash crop utilized by game become the natual order of nature? I don't get that. Seems the same to me. For the record, I don't hunt much at all on food plots. They are a low percentage chance to see a mature buck in my neck of the woods here is MS, especially as you get closer to the peak of the rut.

Where I've hunted in Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, and Kansas; I wouldn't bother planting food plots. Where I've hunted in those states deer have more than enough forage to eat outside of cover thanks to the efforts of the farmers there. The time I spend shinning the seat of a tractor with my rear end here could be spent glassing bean fields from a distance there. You can't get to and glass our food plots from a distance here without disturbing the deer.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Rhino

[ruttinbuc]

As for baiting, would those who are against it sit in an oak tree that was dropping it's acorns, would you build a mock scrape, would you put out estrus scent, do you carry a grunt call, or ratteling horns? It's all baiting.

You know right where the deer are going to be at a bait pile. Acorns fall at random in the natural order of things and the deer react randomly to it. No way of knowing the precise tree the deer are going to be eating under. Unless it is the only oak tree in the woods.

Mock scrapes, estrus scent, grunt calls, and rattling horns are methods that mimic the deer themselves. Most times the deer do not even react. Many times, when they do, it is in a negative way. They most always react to a bait pile. Day or night.

[Dawg]

They most always react to a bait pile. Day or night.

Yes, a deer will always react to a bait site, but you never know when. Just like you never know what acorn tree they will feed under when the acorns start to fall. When the acorns do fall, you will not find a deer eating corn in my neck of the woods, so we go to the area's where the acorns are most concentrated. That is still using bait to me, the deer are lured to the acorns. The only difference is nature spreads it out rather than me. After the acorns are gone/soured, the deer will usually hit the corn but you still never know when.

[ruttinbuc]

Maybe I should have said "the deer are going to be right at that specific bait pile. Right on that spot made by the hands of man." That is not happening in the acorn woods. It is at nature's discretion where those acorns fall.

[Dawg]

Maybe I should have said "the deer are going to be right at that specific bait pile. Right on that spot made by the hands of man." That is not happening in the acorn woods. It is at nature's discretion where those acorns fall.

Still disagree no matter how you phrase it.

How do you know the deer are going to be right at that specific bait pile? Right on that spot made by the hands of man?

You don't.

It is at nature's discretion what acorn tree will drop first, but man can still find that tree and hunt it, which is still hunting at a bait site.

[wtnhunt]

Lots of interesting perspectives here. Gotta agree with Al(Rhino) here on trail cams being nothing more than a tool, that is unless you are using the ones that send you an immediate text or other form of messaging. Perfect example was the buck I killed last fall, trail cam let me know he was around as well as a couple other bucks that came through that would have been shooters, but also let me know that that buck had NO pattern whatsoever. I never would have seen the deer here during daylight during attempts at scouting. That deer might come around once a week or once every two weeks, but we knew when we got pics of him that he was around and knew what type of deer to set our goals for, nothing more than that that would give any unfair advantage to the animal.

Far as acorns go, someone want to come hunt these oaks and tell me it is as easy as sitting over bait and I think they will be in for a bit of a disappointment. We have an abundance of white and red oaks and with wet weather such as we have had this spring we will see huge mast crops this fall and the deer will stay hidden in the woods basically wandering with no set patterns. Might be different if you had one or two trees dropping mast crops, but when you have hundreds of mature oaks in a 80-90 acre area of woods that are loaded, the deer don't have to move around much where they go noticed, not quite the same as a deer being conditioned to step out of the cover of the woods when they hear the motorized feeder sling corn to go and feed under a bucket. That said while I don't think it would be for me I really dont have a problem with hunters using bait where it is legal, I do however have a problem with those low lifes using bait in places where it is not legal as that is in my opinion cheating and is unethical.

We do hunt food plots though. Food plots are perfectly legal and are no guarantee, especially when you have people around you baiting with the timed feeders. Food plots we have are surrounded by cover, deer can literally show up from anywhere and you never know exactly when or if they are going to show up. I have no problem admitting we plant food plots to attempt to hold more deer around our property. We use minerals too.

[Dawg]

My point is, in my neck of the woods, using corn yeilds just as much success as hunting the acorns. When the acorns fall, the deer will not come to the corn so I go to where the acorns are. That's why I have no problem throwing out corn. It does not guarntee me, or anyone else around here, a kill. I don't use a timed feeder, I tried it for about 2 months one season and the deer wouldn't go near it so I gave it away.

[ruttinbuc]

I should also say that, in my opinion, that just because it is legal does not necessarily mean it is right. There are a whole lot of arguments to be made about why and by who some of the laws are passed in the first place.

[wtnhunt]

I should also say that, in my opinion, that just because it is legal does not necessarily mean it is right. There are a whole lot of arguments to be made about why and by who some of the laws are passed in the first place.

Amen to that Mike. Think our wildlife folks made some bad moves not so long back, particularly with reg change allowing for any centerfire rifle. Think there has been some good discussion on whether or not it is ethical to deer hunt with .22 calibers.

[hunterbobb]

I came in late to this discussion and I have yet to see anyone mention the most unethical form of hunting on the planet. Maybe it is so obvious that no one felt they needed to mention it. However, how does everyone feel about the people that pay thousands or dollars to hunt trophys of all kinds inside of fenced inclosures. It's perfectly legal but is it ethical?

How does that line up with the moral compass of those that think if it's legal it's ethical?

Edited June 1, 2010 by hunterbobb

[Dawg]

Hunting inside fenced properties is unethical in my eyes. That is not fair chase.

[Doc]

Hunting inside fenced properties is unethical in my eyes. That is not fair chase.

That all depends on whether we are talking about a 15 acre pasture where the critters are laying down next to the feeding trough, snoring, or are we talking about a 10,000 or 40,000 acre chunk of un-developed ground where the animals are just as skittish and wild and free to escape hunting pressure as anywhere else? Not all fenced hunting areas are created equal.

Sometimes the fences have more to do with keeping trespassers out than for containing the critters. Then too, I have seen some high fences erected to keep deer out because of agricultural operations. Hunting inside of some of those can be a waste of time.

There are definitely fenced hunting areas that amount to hunting semi-domesticated animals. That is not hunting ....... that is simply slaughtering your own meat. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't represent it as hunting. Personally, I don't want that sort of thing associated with hunting in terms of how it is presented to the public. I don't want anyone to confuse what I do with simple animal slaughter. Again, that is a meat production activity, not to be confused as hunting.

Doc

Edited June 1, 2010 by Doc

[Rhino]

I agree with Doc on the fenced enclosure issue. Can't say what the cutoff of one size vs. another would be to make it ethical but it would certainly have to be large enough for the deer to be just as wild as they would be outside a fence.

[Dawg]

That all depends on whether we are talking about a 15 acre pasture where the critters are laying down next to the feeding trough, snoring, or are we talking about a 10,000 or 40,000 acre chunk of un-developed ground where the animals are just as skittish and wild and free to escape hunting pressure as anywhere else? Not all fenced hunting areas are created equal.

Sometimes the fences have more to do with keeping trespassers out than for containing the critters. Then too, I have seen some high fences erected to keep deer out because of agricultural operations. Hunting inside of some of those can be a waste of time.

There are definitely fenced hunting areas that amount to hunting semi-domesticated animals. That is not hunting ....... that is simply slaughtering your own meat. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't represent it as hunting. Personally, I don't want that sort of thing associated with hunting in terms of how it is presented to the public. I don't want anyone to confuse what I do with simple animal slaughter. Again, that is a meat production activity, not to be confused as hunting.

Doc

Have never heard of a fenced in area being that big. It's still fenced, so I still won't call it hunting.

[Goinghuntin]

So how do you feel about dogs being run accross property lines. Or dogs chasing horses and cattle while running across property that they don't have permission to be on. That's one of the main issues in Arkansas where dogs are allowed.

I've only ever seen dogs run across fence lines once. I don't deer hunt with dogs, and it's illegal in Iowa anyway. But were it legal, I'm sure dogs could be taught to keep in a confined area just as they are when hunting birds.

Nathan

[Doc]

Have never heard of a fenced in area being that big. It's still fenced, so I still won't call it hunting.

No, I can't quote exact acreages, but I do know that there are huge ranches that are fenced in all kinds of different ways and for all different kinds of reasons.

Actually, there is nothing magical about a fence simply being a fence when it comes to hunting. Back when our farm was initially whole, we had a few hundred acres with the entire perimeter fenced. I know for a fact that that fence never impacted deer behavior one bit. We continued to maintain it, but originally it was put up by one of the previous owners of the farm many decades before we even got there and I'm sure it didn't change deer movement or activity or patterns back then either. So when you condemn a fenced hunting area, you have to be very specific in the description of that fence and it's purpose. There is an awful lot of fenced in areas that really don't have any impact on hunting whatever.

In order for me to get very excited about the sportsmanship of hunting wild game in a fenced in area, the whole scenario has to meet some pretty specific criteria. Just the presence of a fence does not bother me at all.

Doc

[Dawg]

If the fence is low enough for the deer to cross and come and go as they please, I have no problem with that. It's the high fenced areas, where the deer can't cross, that I have a problem with. Whether it be 100 or 10,000 acres, it matters little, the deer are still fenced within that boundary. It wouldn't feel like hunting to me.