What Do You?

[clrj3514]

If the fence is low enough for the deer to cross and come and go as they please, I have no problem with that. It's the high fenced areas, where the deer can't cross, that I have a problem with. Whether it be 100 or 10,000 acres, it matters little, the deer are still fenced within that boundary. It wouldn't feel like hunting to me.

Yea I know size changes things, but I still couldn't bring myself to hunt a high fence. I'm with Corey here!

[Doc]

If the fence is low enough for the deer to cross and come and go as they please, I have no problem with that. It's the high fenced areas, where the deer can't cross, that I have a problem with. Whether it be 100 or 10,000 acres, it matters little, the deer are still fenced within that boundary. It wouldn't feel like hunting to me.

Actually I have different kinds of a problems with "high fences". To me, deer are a state public resource, and there should be a law against prohibiting free movement of a public resource, other than for purposes of keeping them out to safeguard property and livlihood. As far as what fair-chase hunting issues that exist inside of fenced areas, to me it is all related to size. If a parcel is large enough for deer to easily and successfully avoid hunters, then I have no real problem with that from a challenge point of view.

I have never hunted such a place, because in every case that I'm aware of, you have to pay for hunting access in high-fenced areas. I don't pay to hunt and will not support such operations. Hunting has always been a free activity throughout my lifetime and I won't spend one cent to support changing that. I know that hunting is heading in that direction, but that practice of pay-to-hunt will never be advanced by any contributions from me. So my quarrel with high-fenced areas goes way beyond whether it is fair-chase or not. The issue of fair chase relates more to the size of the area than the fence itself. But I really am opposed to wild game hoarding as more and more high-fence operations turn into commercial hunting preserves and deprive more and more hunters of free access to the sport and slowly change hunting into a sport of the wealthy.

Doc

[Doc]

Wow!!! What a thread. This thing is huge. There are so many issues being spawned here that I can hardly keep up with them.

The dog hunting thing ...... I have never hunted anything with a dog, but I really don't have much of a problem with that. I personally don't want the dog doing all the hunting for me, but I have to admit that it is a deeply engrained style of hunting that has roots in tradition as long as any hunting method. Are there abuses in that kind of hunting? .... I suppose that just like any kind of activity there are those that create problems with it.

Bait: ........ I always considered myself a good enough hunter that I don't need to resort to that sort of tactic. Again, in places where that is a traditionally accepted hunting tactic ..... have at it. I always thought that a good hunter who adequately understands deer should be able to figure out what the likely current food sources are rather than trying to train the deer to come to a source that they conjure up. But then, that's just me.

Any way you look at a lot of these controversial, so-called ethical choices, you are bound to find some area of the country where it is an accepted practice that is time honored and not even questioned. In those areas ...... so be it! I sure don't want to be in the position of trying to tell those folks they are wrong or "unethical". However, I'll probably never be bashful about telling anyone who wants to listen that I am not interested in trying out those activities or tactics due to my own personal ethics. They can do what they want.

Doc

[wtnhunt]

Never dog hunted, but can say for certain that we have beagles run through on our property year after year, and YES those same dogs will chase deer off your property too. A bunch of yahoos chasing their dogs can ruin a deer hunt for a person real quick. Has not been as bad the past few years, but with seeing how those dogs chase rabbits off of properties I would imagine deer would be worse since they likely cover more ground just a bit faster than rabbits. Where there are giant tracts of land it might be a little different.

On the fenced properties I actually kinda agree with Doc on this one. Large enough fenced operations that the deer never see a fence, what is the problem? There are islands smaller than some places that are fenced in and there are also natural barriers most of us hunt as funnels(opportunistic), are the deer at a disadvantage in any way when they are inside a fenced area that is 10-20 or significantly more times the deers core area? To each their own I guess, I would probably not hesitate to hunt a large enough fenced in area given the opportunity. At least then I could form a more educated opinion rather than sitting here and saying it is not for me because I have this preconceived idea.

[Goinghuntin]

If the fence is low enough for the deer to cross and come and go as they please, I have no problem with that. It's the high fenced areas, where the deer can't cross, that I have a problem with. Whether it be 100 or 10,000 acres, it matters little, the deer are still fenced within that boundary. It wouldn't feel like hunting to me.

I couldn't have put it any better Corey. I follow the Fair Chase methods, and if I can chase that deer into a corner where he can't get out I don't call it fair chase. And it was mentioned that you can hunt islands smaller than some fenced in areas, haven't you ever seen a deer swim???

Nathan

[Rhino]

I've only ever seen dogs run across fence lines once. I don't deer hunt with dogs, and it's illegal in Iowa anyway. But were it legal, I'm sure dogs could be taught to keep in a confined area just as they are when hunting birds.

Nathan

It's legal here and we have neighbors on 2 sides of us that run dogs during the dates when it is legal. I can tell you this...if a dog owner can teach his deer dogs to be confined to an area they don't ever try down here. Dogs running deer regularily cross property lines here all the time. It's always been that way for any land in MS where I've hunted in the past near hunters that ran dogs. All the dogs are taught is to run deer and that's it. Some aren't taught that too well either and end up being abandoned to run the woods wild.

Needless to say I'm not in favor of running deer with dogs for many reasons...all from personal experience. Although I'm not a fan of it at all I have mixed emotions about arguing it's ethics one way or the other.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Rhino

[Dawg]

Actually I have different kinds of a problems with "high fences". To me, deer are a state public resource, and there should be a law against prohibiting free movement of a public resource, other than for purposes of keeping them out to safeguard property and livlihood. As far as what fair-chase hunting issues that exist inside of fenced areas, to me it is all related to size. If a parcel is large enough for deer to easily and successfully avoid hunters, then I have no real problem with that from a challenge point of view.

I have never hunted such a place, because in every case that I'm aware of, you have to pay for hunting access in high-fenced areas. I don't pay to hunt and will not support such operations. Hunting has always been a free activity throughout my lifetime and I won't spend one cent to support changing that. I know that hunting is heading in that direction, but that practice of pay-to-hunt will never be advanced by any contributions from me. So my quarrel with high-fenced areas goes way beyond whether it is fair-chase or not. The issue of fair chase relates more to the size of the area than the fence itself. But I really am opposed to wild game hoarding as more and more high-fence operations turn into commercial hunting preserves and deprive more and more hunters of free access to the sport and slowly change hunting into a sport of the wealthy.

Doc

I feel the same way on both of these underlined statements.

Never dog hunted, but can say for certain that we have beagles run through on our property year after year, and YES those same dogs will chase deer off your property too. A bunch of yahoos chasing their dogs can ruin a deer hunt for a person real quick. Has not been as bad the past few years, but with seeing how those dogs chase rabbits off of properties I would imagine deer would be worse since they likely cover more ground just a bit faster than rabbits. Where there are giant tracts of land it might be a little different.

On the fenced properties I actually kinda agree with Doc on this one. Large enough fenced operations that the deer never see a fence, what is the problem? There are islands smaller than some places that are fenced in and there are also natural barriers most of us hunt as funnels(opportunistic), are the deer at a disadvantage in any way when they are inside a fenced area that is 10-20 or significantly more times the deers core area? To each their own I guess, I would probably not hesitate to hunt a large enough fenced in area given the opportunity. At least then I could form a more educated opinion rather than sitting here and saying it is not for me because I have this preconceived idea.

I have no doubts that a deer can put the slip on any hunter in some big high fenced areas, I just wouldn't feel good about it if I knew there was a big fence surrounding me. I could be slap dab in the middle of 10,000 high fenced acres, but I would still know that those deer were incaged within that boundary by man. The islands, yea I see what you are saying there, but it would still be without the "fence". It's the high fence that I have the problem with. As I said, man incaged those animals in that boundary and I just wouldn't feel right hunting there.

[Dawg]

OK, so we have covered baiting, running deer with dogs, deer drives/pushes, and high fenced areas.

So here are two other subjects.

What about rifle caliber?

I know some states don't allow high powered rifles to be used, but for those who are allowed, what caliber is too much?

I have three guns that I shoot. 30-30, Swedish Mauser in 7.62x55, and .300 mag. I use the 30-30 and 7.62x55 when I hunt here at home and now use the .300 mag for my hunts in Colorado.

The .300 is the biggest caliber I will ever shoot.

What about distance?

When at home I limit my shots to around the 200 yard mark with my 30-30 and 7.62x55. With the .300 mag, I am comfortable out to 300 yards and call it good. So to me, around the 300 yard mark is enough.

What say you?

[hunterbobb]

Another part of the fenced hunting operations is, these deer are actually raised and breed to produce huge racks. I have seen web sites where they have actual pictures of their bucks and the client can pick the actual deer he wants to hunt. Many of them are 200+ in antler size and cost upwards of $20,000.00. Now no matter how big the enclosure is. You can't convince me that something isn't being done to make sure the client is getting his 20K worth.

:death:

[hunterbobb]

[quote name=

What about rifle caliber?

You didn't say what type of game is being hunted. I assume you are talking about deer. In which case I agree that a 300. Win Mag. is as big as you need. My personnal favorite is the 270 Win. and I limit my shots to 300 yards. Just so no one else says it first. I do make every attempt to get closer if possible.

Finally you mention a 7.62 X 55 Swedish Mauser. Are you sure that is the right caliber designation. I have never heard of that one and if it is correct I would like to have a private disscussion with you about that rifle. Sounds interesting.

:gun2:

[Dawg]

You didn't say what type of game is being hunted. I assume you are talking about deer. In which case I agree that a 300. Win Mag. is as big as you need. My personnal favorite is the 270 Win. and I limit my shots to 300 yards. Just so no one else says it first. I do make every attempt to get closer if possible.

Finally you mention a 7.62 X 55 Swedish Mauser. Are you sure that is the right caliber designation. I have never heard of that one and if it is correct I would like to have a private disscussion with you about that rifle. Sounds interesting.

:gun2:

Yes, I am talking about deer, whitetail/mule.

On the Swedish Mauser, that is my mistake, I had a previous Mauser that I had mixed up with this one. It is actually a 6.5x55, sorry for the confusion and thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[Rhino]

What about rifle caliber?

I know some states don't allow high powered rifles to be used, but for those who are allowed, what caliber is too much?

As long as you can make a clean kill without ruining a lot of meat with a well placed shot using your choice of caliber/bullet combination what difference does it make when it comes to ethics. That's all that matters IMO. Your choice of bullet for any magnum round you choose is going to have a lot more to do with tearing up meat than the caliber. I wouldn't use a .416 Rigby for deer hunting but dead is dead provided you don't end up with a ground meat carcus after the kill shot.

What about distance?

When at home I limit my shots to around the 200 yard mark with my 30-30 and 7.62x55. With the .300 mag, I am comfortable out to 300 yards and call it good. So to me, around the 300 yard mark is enough.

What say you?

Distance is about knowing one's own limitations with the round he/she chooses to hunt with. Same goes for a bowhunter knowing his/her personal limitations.

Also shooting targets at 300 yards vs. a deer at that range are two different things. Most of the time I hunt with my Remington Model 7 in .308. When I carry it I'm usually hunting cover where a long shot will probably be under 100 yards. I'd feel fine shooting it further than that but most of the places I hunt in cover don't allow for shots much longer than that. Now on the rare occasions when I know I'm going to hunt where shot opportunities could be 200 yards or better, I'll break out my choice of magnum rounds to hunt.

[redkneck]

I was thinking the same thing Al, if you make a good shot, why worry about having too much gun? My 300 lets me pack just as much meat as my 243 does when it's all said and done. Too small a caliber is a different story though.

[Rhino]

I was thinking the same thing Al, if you make a good shot, why worry about having too much gun? My 300 lets me pack just as much meat as my 243 does when it's all said and done. Too small a caliber is a different story though.

Ditto!!! Same goes for my 30-378 Wby mag compared to my .308 on the rare occasions when I choose to hunt with it. I hand load my Wby with Barnes X bullets designed to make a wound channel that doesn't tear a deer's meat to sheds. If I shot a bullet with it that wasn't designed for maximum weight retention/minimal meat damage it wouldn't.

For the record, I experience more damage to meat when shooting a deer with my 50 cal muzzleloader and my 45-70 than my bullet choice for my 30-378. 45-70 single shot rifles are legal during our primitive weapons season.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Rhino

[Dawg]

So what would you consider too small of a caliber?

[Rhino]

So what would you consider too small of a caliber?

JMHO but the various .22 cal centerfire rifle rounds were mainly designed for long varmint hunting, not deer size game. The only exception I can think might be the .224 WBy Mag for hunting antelope. It's essentially a miniaturized .300 Wby Mag.

[redkneck]

I don't know where you draw the line, there's so many calibers out there nowadays. Me, personally I'm not going to shoot less than the 243, and I actually wanted the 7-08 when I bought it for the girls.

[Doc]

I could be mistaken and perhaps I missed something in the NYS regulations, but on areas of New York where rifles are permitted for deer hunting, the only stipulation that I found is that the weapon must be a centerfire rifle. That would mean that would also allow me to use my .22 hornet. In my mind that is an inadequate deer hunting caliber.

So did I miss the caliber regulations in the NYS game syllabus or are they really allowing any old centerfire rifle for deer hunting? Somebody want to straighten me out on this?

Doc

[Goinghuntin]

What about distance?

In Iowa we can't use rifles, at least not where I live, so I'm confined to using shotguns. I try to keep my shots under 100 yards, even though I know the round I'm shooting (I shoot Hornady SST's in 12 ga.) can cleanly kill a lot further out. But with open sights, there are too many variances to consider when shooting that far.

Nathan

[Rhino]

Nathan...not exactly sure where you live in eastern Iowa but in some counties center fire rifles (.24 caliber or larger) and center fire handguns (.357 Mag or larger) are legal during the January antlerless only season. Check the regs for a list of the counties if you need to (pg. 23).

It doesn't make sense to me at all why they changed that law for the late antlerless only season. The same reason for not having rifles legal during the other firearm season still applies. It may be worse then knowing your Iowa bucks start shedding as early as late December. You have to think a lot of shed bucks are being dropped during that late antlerless only season by big bore rifles.

[clrj3514]

In Iowa we can't use rifles, at least not where I live, so I'm confined to using shotguns. I try to keep my shots under 100 yards, even though I know the round I'm shooting (I shoot Hornady SST's in 12 ga.) can cleanly kill a lot further out. But with open sights, there are too many variances to consider when shooting that far.

Nathan

That's where personal limitations & hunting conditions come into play. I respect your choice because you should never push yourself farther than you can go.

[clrj3514]

I believe the main reason you guys are against dog-hunting is because of dogs crossing property lines, but it's A LOT different where I hunt. We lease land from a paper company as well as the other hunting clubs around us & they all run dogs too. So if our dogs get on their land it's no big deal at all.

[wtnhunt]

What about rifle caliber?

I know some states don't allow high powered rifles to be used, but for those who are allowed, what caliber is too much?

Used to be a limitation here Corey, with .24 cal being the smallest allowed. The state changed that a few years back to allow any centerfire. Mistake in my opinion.

I could be mistaken and perhaps I missed something in the NYS regulations, but on areas of New York where rifles are permitted for deer hunting, the only stipulation that I found is that the weapon must be a centerfire rifle. That would mean that would also allow me to use my .22 hornet. In my mind that is an inadequate deer hunting caliber.

So did I miss the caliber regulations in the NYS game syllabus or are they really allowing any old centerfire rifle for deer hunting? Somebody want to straighten me out on this?

Doc

No clue about New York's regs, but any centerfire is legal here in TN during our rifle seasons.

[Goinghuntin]

Nathan...not exactly sure where you live in eastern Iowa but in some counties center fire rifles (.24 caliber or larger) and center fire handguns (.357 Mag or larger) are legal during the January antlerless only season. Check the regs for a list of the counties if you need to (pg. 23).

It doesn't make sense to me at all why they changed that law for the late antlerless only season. The same reason for not having rifles legal during the other firearm season still applies. It may be worse then knowing your Iowa bucks start shedding as early as late December. You have to think a lot of shed bucks are being dropped during that late antlerless only season by big bore rifles.

Very true, I'm surprised a Mississippi boy like you knew that It's just the bottom two tiers of counties that are allowed to use rifles, I'm pretty sure. It could be the bottom three tiers. That's way south of me either way. And I never did get that part about the January antlerless-only season getting to use rifles. It's a very quiet season, not many hunters out. Perhaps thats way, maybe a test or something to see how well it goes over.

Nathan

[gzilla45]

As far as caliber is concerned I think the .22 centerfire is just too small. The state of WI allows it for deer hunting but I'd like to see that changed. Ballisticly it probably can get the job done but there is zero room for error in my opinion.