buckee Posted February 25, 2005 Report Share Posted February 25, 2005 The Criminalization of Christianity By Wendy Griffith For CWNews CWNews.org – It is a story that has the Christian community on the edge of its seat. In Philadelphia, 11 Christians were arrested and charged under Pennsylvania’s hate crimes law (the Ethnic Intimidation Act), for preaching the Gospel. The arrests took place at a homosexual event last October, and five of the 11 still face serious criminal charges. Twenty-five-year-old Michael Marcavage is at the center of a case that could determine whether preaching the Gospel is a hate crime; specifically, whether preaching against homosexuality is a hate crime. Marcavage, who has a ministry called Repent America, and 10 other Christians, took their message "Homosexuality is sin, Christ can set you free" to Outfest, Philadelphia's annual gay "coming out" celebration, last October. The video of the event shows the Christians being surrounded by an aggressive homosexual security force that was holding giant pink styrofoam angels and blowing loud whistles. Marcavage's lawyer, Scott Shields, says the video is key to their defense. Shields said, “Because a picture tells a thousand words, it shows exactly what happened and when the Christians appeared at this event. Michael Marcavage and the other defendants were met by this hostile, lawless mob -- and they really were. They had these gigantic, pink styrofoam boards to block their written messages, and they were blowing these obnoxious whistles, and when you see the whole video, you can tell that the police are just getting very tired of hearing all of this noise. And the only way to stop that wasn't to tell them to stop and put down their pink boards and put their whistles away. They arrested our clients.” Marcavage is seen on the video questioning police about his First Amendment rights. Later, he and the others are led away from the crowd, handcuffed, and put into a paddy wagon and taken to jail. Once behind bars, Marcavage discovered just how serious the charges were: three felonies and five misdemeanors. The felonies include: ethnic intimidation and inciting a riot found under Pennsylvania’s hate crimes law. The charges could mean 47 years in prison, if convicted. Marcavage said, “Well, it was absolutely astonishing. I had no idea that I would be one of the first victims in our nation to be charged under hate crimes legislation, which I see as the criminalization of Christianity. When you look at the target audience of these hate laws, it is the Christians -- they want to silence our message." Among those jailed were 68-year-old Linda Beckman and 73-year-old Arlene Elshinnawy. Beckman remarked, “When my eyes saw the charges against us, really and truly, my eyeballs about popped out of my head. I couldn't believe it!” Elshinnawy says, "And they said, you have a choice - you can either leave or get arrested. And I said, Well, yeah, I'm with them because we hadn't done anything wrong. So I got handcuffed too, and let me tell you something - handcuffs hurt." All charges were dropped against Beckman and Elshinnawy, but five of the 11 still face charges. And Marcavage and a 17-year-old girl still face felony charges. The case is unprecedented, because, according to Shields, "It's the first time in America that preaching the Bible has become the evidentiary basis for a hate crime." Shields remarked, “In my estimation, this is sort of the ‘last gasp’ of this whole movement. They want to go into the public square, they want to have their open celebrations of sin, as Mr. Marcavage states; yet when the Christians come with a message that's completely antithetical to what their message is, they act like a lawless mob and they put the Christians down." Shields said that the case is a clear violation of his clients rights to free speech, provided not only under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, but even more strongly under Pennsylvania’s free speech laws. And Shields added, “I think it's disturbing, because it's a complete and absolute abuse of power. Our government officials are going to do everything they can to protect any special interest group out there, and I think that these prosecutions are all about getting the Christians to just go back into the closet." But Outfest organizers paint a much different story. They say that the Repent America protesters were trying to disrupt their event, were name-calling, and were trying to cause a riot. CBN News asked Chuck Volz, the senior advisor to Philly Pride, “But how you can say that, when as soon as they arrived, the pink angels were there surrounding them? Volz responded, “Well, obviously this year we did. We did have our own signage and we had our whistles to sort of drown out -- so it was First Amendment vs. First Amendment, I suppose. But it still, never the less gets heated, and even though our group tried to keep things calm.” CBN News further asked Volz, “If it’s First Amendment vs. First Amendment, why do the Christians go to jail and your group is allowed to do its thing?” Volz replied, "Because we were given a direct order by the Philly Police Dept. to break our human chain. We obeyed. When they were given a direct order by the Police Dept. to move north on 13th Street, they decided not to." A video given to CBN News by Philly Pride shows an argument between one of the Christians and a gay man dressed as a woman, in which there was name-calling on both sides. Marcavage said, despite that one incident, their motive was not hate, but love. Marcavage said, “The reality is that we went there to proclaim, ‘homosexuality is sin, Christ can set you free.’ And that was the message the whole time. However, we were only there for moments, because the police arrested us and charged us later under hate crimes legislation.” Volz said, "If anything, these people turn off the gay community to Christianity, which is counter-intuitive to what they're supposed to doing. They're supposed to be welcoming people into the Christian community. People get turned off to this kind of -- ya know, I don't want to call it hate speech, but its aggressive rhetoric." Philadelphia is a city rich in history. The signing of the Declaration of Independence happened here, the Liberty Bell is here, this is the birthplace of American freedom, including religious freedom, but it may also go down in history as the city that jailed 11 Christians, and charged them with a hate crime for preaching the Gospel. It is a charge that the founder of Pennsylvania himself was familiar with. William Penn, who now looks down from his perch atop city hall, was once arrested for preaching the Gospel in public. But that happened in England. He came to America to escape religious persecution. Marcavage fears Christianity itself is now on trial. He said, "What does this mean for the pastor in the pulpit, or the Christian sharing his faith in the workplace? We're going to find more and more Christians who are going to be targeted under these types of laws in the future, and our hope is that Christians would awaken to the fact that if we don't say something now, we'll end up saying something behind bars." Philadelphia's District Attorney Lynn Abraham, who is one of the architects of Pennsylvania's Hate Crimes Law, is aggressively pursuing the criminal charges against the Christians. She is up for re-election, and some charge, trying to cater to the homosexuals. Shields commented, “We have a D.A. who has thrown the law out the window, has thrown the federal Constitution and our state constitution out the window. To charge these individuals with a hate crime under the Ethnic Intimidation Statute sets a very dangerous precedent, because if it's successful here, it's going to start becoming prevalent in other jurisdictions." When telephoned, the D.A's office would not comment on the case. The Christians head back to court on February 17th. That is when Shields will try to get the case dismissed. If it is not dismissed, he says it will go to a jury trial. Although there is a possibility that the case could be thrown out later this month, many say the fact that it ever made it this far should send chills to every Christian in America. The Department of Justice is looking into the legal charges surrounding the action, and apparently the judge is not too impressed with the Commonwealth's case. She remarked, “If they don't want to hear messages they don't like, there are plenty of other countries they can move to.” --------------------------- Do you see where we're headed here folks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Here's a total list of charges. Eight charges were filed: criminal conspiracy, possession of instruments of crime, reckless endangerment of another person, ethnic intimidation, riot, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct and obstructing highways. I think the City of Philadelphia got a little over zealous in their arrests but they were probably assuming that the protesters and the "pink angels" would escalate into more than just singing hymns and telling people they are going to ****. However, when people want to stage a protest, every city in this country has specific laws dealing with when, where and how you can do it, meaning, if they erect a barrier and say you must stay behind it and you cross it, you get arrested. It reminds me somewhat of the Christian group that was or is planning on suing the US Secret Service because they say their religous freedom was denied at the inaugural parade because they couldn't line the parade route with 6 foot wooden crosses, well, duh, it's not a violation of religous freedom, it was for the protection of the President and whoever else is there, and the protection of the President trumps wooden crosses on a Presidential parade route any day, if they let big wooden crosses than they have to let other large objects that obstruct views and can be used as weapons. Remember that John Kerry rally I went to last year, well, of course there were a small group of protesters and the police made them stand across the road, if they crossed the road, they got arrested, plain and simple. Not every law is designed to deny Christians their right to freedom of speech, thats just the way it is taken and Christian zealots have a way of thinking that they should be exempt from certain laws because they are preaching the word or whatever, I know, cause I used to be one, when I stopped thinking that everyone was out to stifle Christianity and deny rights to free speech, I stopped walking around hating everybody but people who didn't think just like me and thinking everybody but me was going to ****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted February 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Philadelphia Judge Throws Out Hate Crime Charges By Wendy Griffith CWNews CWNews.org -- Publicly preaching the Gospel at a gay pride parade is not a hate crime. That's a judge's decision in a controversial case against Christians in Philadelphia. Last October, 25-year-old Michael Marcavage and 10 other Christians were arrested, jailed and charged under Pennsylvania's hate crimes law. The arrests took place at Outfest, an annual homosexual coming-out celebration in Philadelphia. The Christians say they were there just to preach the Gospel and tell gays that homosexuality is a sin. But the D.A.'s office charged the Christians with ethnic intimidation, which is a felony and a hate crime in Pennsylvania. A judge tossed out the charges after watching a videotape of the events leading to the arrest. I spoke with Michael Marcavage and his lawyer Scott Shields about the significance of this case. Shields told me that this case is unprecedented because, "…It's the first time in our nation that the Bible has been used as the evidentiary basis for a hate crime. That's exactly what Lynn Abraham did - from our District Attorney's office - and it really is egregious." Scott added, "And I just want to say that we have a rich history here in Pennsylvania, especially in Philadelphia. We have William Penn. And without God's help in putting William Penn and our founding fathers on this earth, to give us the wisdom, to give us these protections, so we could have religious freedom, and so we could have freedom of speech, we wouldn't be here." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Sounds like the judge made the right decision based on what I read. Sounds like those arrested were violated to me. I just dont understand why this was ever even called a hate crime to begin with. When it comes to our right to speech, Christians are really getting a bad deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjones Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity the judge did make the decision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity I read in the paper today that a homeless guy who is a Viet Nam vet, and was once a lawyer is suing the state of Texas for removal of the Ten Commandments from some government office. The U.S. Supreme Court is going to rule on the case soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity LMAO........i dont know about the arrest,but we had a group that used to come to our 4th of july fest. here in town. They would hold up pictures of aborted fetusies, and scream and holler at all the "sinners around them" they got arrested for disturbing the peace. GOOD i say bunch of idiots. This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with following the laws about holding a demonstration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] I read in the paper today that a homeless guy who is a Viet Nam vet, and was once a lawyer is suing the state of Texas for removal of the Ten Commandments from some government office. The U.S. Supreme Court is going to rule on the case soon. [/ QUOTE ] Hope he wins. Wouldnt that be a nice trend to start across the country. Put God's word back every where in which his word has been removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronS Posted February 28, 2005 Report Share Posted February 28, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Matthew 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity No where have i said anything about religion my feelings about or show any political view of it. I do have a problem with the neo-religious. I have no problem with what you or anyone else does in your home, be it share a bed with a man or smoke refer, or hate blacks, its your right to freedom. That said if the cops bust you for these things I hope they bust you too the full extent of the law, i mean really thats what laws are for right. I have never said gays where born that way or anything close to it. I challenege you to find those words anywhere in this forum from me. I dont pretend to know how gays work or come to be nor do i care to, I have also never said I'm tolerant of gays, for the most part I'm not. I dont socialize with them,and pretty much think its disgusting. Just because i dont care what someone that has nothing to do with me does in the bedroom dosnt mean I tolerate it. As for this post, I think neo-religious people are as bad as PETA...YES i do. The case i gave happened about 7 years ago before gay or anything else was a big deal yet I couldnt walk down the street without being screamed at....Is that your idea of free speech?? Or is it disturbing the peace? Dosnt mean Id tolerate a bunch og gays screaming at me on a side walk either I accept god, but does that dosnt mean i should cast judgment on all those who do things that i dont like. The KKK, PETA, ACLU, Pinkies, all hold rallies, you will not find me at any of them shouting that i think there beliefs are going to seal there souls in the fires of ****. There Judgment day will come as it will for us all. Part of freedom is living YOUR life as you feel fit, actually its more than that its a requirment. I make my life choices so they will help ME, and by helping me my money helps the system. I question your idea of tolerance, because when it come to what goes on around ME I'm hardly tolerant. I can tell you I will show my kids the right path and once they get the right age will step back and expect them to know right from wrong,There will be no free handouts, if they stray they will know how i feel, but I will not control them once they are cut loose, just as I was. When I strayed I learned my lesson and it helped straighten and harden. I'm past my days where I argue theorys, science nor political though i made the misatke when i first started in here. How many times have they just been proved wrong later...thats why i busted into the Homosexual post awhile back.....has nothing to do with tolerance nor does my post in here. People who look a little closer at my words normally find me closer to center-right than somehwere on the left, but havnt found to many from GA that I see eye to eye with <<<<<<<<<Cheers Parrothead!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But hey you hit the age right on the button..22 thanks for your opinion though, Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Hey Aaron, I think he was confusing you with me, of course, he's wrong on the age thing if he was thinking about me. Oddly enough, when I was younger I was ultra conservative and hated anyone remotely left of where I was, the only problem was like many Young Republicans I had no idea why I was like that, maybe it's because that was what was expected of me, only in my later years did I begin to accept people for what they really are, human beings, and form my own identity and beliefs that I FELT was the right way to feel and to treat people. I was one of those ultra-christians that you referred to and would have gladly stood outside an abortion clinic and screamed at a teenager who made a mistake and got an abortion, or stood at the funeral of a gay man who was beaten to death for how he was and scream how evil he was and that he was burning in **** when he was probably a kinder, gentler and accepting person than I was. The only thing is that the older I got the more I realized that people deserve to be treated a certain way and I really didn't like the hatred I had built up inside of myself for people who weren't exactly like me. The previous post mentioned there is no scientific evidence of gays being born the way they are, well, there is no proof they aren't and there is no scientific evidence to prove that the earth was created in 7 days 15000 years ago, never mind the fact that it would be absolutely impossible to have the world population we have today with only 2 people starting humanity. It all comes down to what you believe, and belief's and knowledge are two VERRRRRRRY different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Slug maybe a differant in age maybe its just the time we posted. To be honest I find myself hating more things than i do loving, to be labeled as a democrat or Demonrat....I dont care MY views are MY views and everyone else can......... I dont care what side you view me on...I hunt more hours than many on this forum, and if they have a problem with that they can kiss me. I'll support guns and whatever untill the day I die, just because there older and "wiser" donst mean diddle to me. And messing with them will either wind up with me banned or them in a word, of hurt.....so political BS dosnt have much meaning anymore. A bunch of guys who act like they are the world leading masters of said subject, I dont care its a free country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Yep Aaron, think he confused you with sluggo. I have to admit I have accidentally confused sluggo with others before too. I think you and sluggo hold very similar ideals on many issues, and that may be how the confusion comes into play. As far as your views, from my take on Mikes post here, I dont really think he was trying to impose anything on anyone or suggesting anyone was wrong. Your views are yours as sluggos are his and mine are mine. Think Mike had good intentions in his advice. I personally can see his point in directing his thoughts about the "born gay" idea. It is pretty lame in my opinion to suggest the mind of a child is somehow different in a person who later on becomes gay. My opinion is that society is mostly responsible for the increase in the numbers of gays, through acceptance and exposure. Saying someone is born gay and that they have no choice is like saying a murderer is born that way and has no choice. How could anyone ever determine the mindset of a child in those respects. Other than mentally disturbed individuals you cannot, and the bogus crap research that claims to show links to such is a bunch of bunk garbage. Back onthe subject of Christianity, the removal of the rights of Christians has been going on for a good while. Some chose to ignore it. Ignoring problems as we all knbow makes them go away right? In the time I have been on these forums, I have said it many times and will say it again, what makes the aclu and these ignorant individuals who remove the ten commandments and the pledge and prayer from sporting events and schools feel their rights are any more valuabale than ours(Christians)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity I agree William, and to Mike dont take my post the wrong way, I wasnt trying to flame you, just to give you my whole feelings on the subject at hand because i think you took my views much differant than they are. Like I said before I dont pretend to know anything about gays or there lifestyles, and I'm glad this is one subject where the less i know the better. I agree with your last paragraph, i just think there is differance in the examples you gave and the examples that this post was started over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParrotHead Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] People who look a little closer at my words normally find me closer to center-right than somehwere on the left, but havnt found to many from GA that I see eye to eye with <<<<<<<<<Cheers Parrothead!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [/ QUOTE ] Hey now, I have purposely stayed away from these types of threads and here you are draggin me into it. So since you've done me the favor and haven't been too shy on your beliefs I'll share a few of mine with you. Read the Bible and you can clearly see where we're headed. We have allowed our governments to dictate to us that openly demonstrating a belief in God is wrong and anyone that falls into this trap will burn in ****. Also, the Bible has some very specific doctorine concerning homosexuality and it's my belief in reading this that if you're gay, you're going to suffer the same fate - burning in ****. Again, read the Bible and you can find a lot of things that we allow today that God has forbidden. In some states the government allows people to commit suicide - an unfogivable sin in God's words but because some jackass politian says it's ok we'll do it. Those people might be rethinking their horrible life here on earth right about now as things get heated up.....maybe it wasn't that bad. I say it's past time when all Christians need to raise up and proclaim their faith - more like reclaim it! Your time on this earth is numbered and you need to treat every day as if it were your last..... You may disagree with my beliefs, I don't care. You may be offended by them - I don't care. In the end all men are accountable for themselves and their own actions. I know that I haven't been the best person on this earth and I fear standing before the lord when my time comes and whatever my fate is I'll have to live with it but one thing I won't be accused of is not believing in the God or placing my well-being in his hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] Again, read the Bible and you can find a lot of things that we allow today that God has forbidden. In some states the government allows people to commit suicide - an unfogivable sin in God's words but because some jackass politian says it's ok we'll do it. Those people might be rethinking their horrible life here on earth right about now as things get heated up.....maybe it wasn't that bad. [/ QUOTE ] could you say some more on this?? Have no idea what you speak of, other than the fact that it is a unforgivable sin in the eye's of god. Gotta love the intensity of cabin fever wasnt trying to ruffle the feathers just a joke...oh well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I read in the paper today that a homeless guy who is a Viet Nam vet, and was once a lawyer is suing the state of Texas for removal of the Ten Commandments from some government office. The U.S. Supreme Court is going to rule on the case soon. [/ QUOTE ] Hope he wins. Wouldnt that be a nice trend to start across the country. Put God's word back every where in which his word has been removed. [/ QUOTE ] William, Other way around buddy. This dude is trying to remove the commandments, not getting the back in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Again, read the Bible and you can find a lot of things that we allow today that God has forbidden. In some states the government allows people to commit suicide - an unfogivable sin in God's words but because some jackass politian says it's ok we'll do it. Those people might be rethinking their horrible life here on earth right about now as things get heated up.....maybe it wasn't that bad. [/ QUOTE ] could you say some more on this?? Have no idea what you speak of, other than the fact that it is a unforgivable sin in the eye's of god. Gotta love the intensity of cabin fever wasnt trying to ruffle the feathers just a joke...oh well [/ QUOTE ] You know, I'm real tempted to tell y'all what Aaron (carbonhunter) is really like, but I won't, I know he has a reputation to uphold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I read in the paper today that a homeless guy who is a Viet Nam vet, and was once a lawyer is suing the state of Texas for removal of the Ten Commandments from some government office. The U.S. Supreme Court is going to rule on the case soon. [/ QUOTE ] Hope he wins. Wouldnt that be a nice trend to start across the country. Put God's word back every where in which his word has been removed. [/ QUOTE ] William, Other way around buddy. This dude is trying to remove the commandments, not getting the back in. [/ QUOTE ] My bad there Chris, see how easily a moron like me can misinterpret something , and that was in plain english . Thought the way I read it the guy was a Christian suing for the removal of commandments from a building, taking that as they had already been removed like in so many other courthouses across the coutry and he was suing to get them back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slugshooter Posted March 2, 2005 Report Share Posted March 2, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity Don't worry wtnhunt, thats the way I was interpreting it also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 3, 2005 Report Share Posted March 3, 2005 Re: The Criminalization of Christianity [ QUOTE ] I say that if you agree with every thing your party says. I dont have time for you. I am a big time Democrat but think that gay marrage is wrong!! [/ QUOTE ] And this pertains to this post about Christianity in what wy ????? The [ QUOTE ] I am a big time Democrat [/ QUOTE ] thing is getting a little tired buddy. How about alittle elaboration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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