Anger Management

[johnf]

I've had several students over the years with "anger management" issues. I've found that it seems the LESS tollorant I am with these issues, the less issues there seem to be. This leads me to believe that these kids don't have and ligitimate mental illness, but just have not been encouraged by their parents to control themselves. I think our society has tried to rationalize any diviant behavior so much that anything seems to turn into an illness that everyone else must occomidate.

With younger students I just tell them they have to control themsleves. With older students here is what I tell them. "You're not going to like hearing this, but it's the truth. Nobody cares that you have issues. Nobody cares why you have issues. People want you to do your job, show up on time and get along with other people. Your boss doesn't care how your grampa treated you, that your dad left you or that your uncle or whoever got a little too close. Sorry, reality is that no one cares. You have to do your job. That's what they care about. How do you think a cop is going to react to your issues? Do you think he's going to give you time out to collect yourself, or do you think your going to end up face down in the gravel with a boot in the back of your neck? Life isn't fair and it's not nice all the time. You can decide to control yourself or you can end up in prison, it's all pretty much up to you."

[Randy]

I think there are differnces between adults and kids. Kids are trying to find "their place" and rebel against authority because they already know everything and who are you "old man" to tell me differently? LOL

Adults, just never grew out of it and feel the need to be in control. Apparenly daddy never slapped the bejesus out of them...

[johnf]

I had a particular student about 6 years ago with major "anger issues" he and his best friend were pretty much alike. He was a drummer in my band and his buddy was a football player, who may very well be the best athlete I've ever seen on the high school level, and I've had several students play Major DI sports and even a couple in the NFL. Both of them were black guys from very poor families without a father in the home. When I met them, they both got suspended on a regular basis. Of course the FB player seemed to always be back by Friday night and didn't miss football practice. I wouldn't let my guy play if he had gotten in trouble, I took him under my wing a bit, taking him fishing and bringing him home for dinner a lot. We talked a lot about his anger issues and about different situations and how he should or should have reacted. In the beginning he would say "But I couldn't let him treat me that way, or I can't punk out" and things like that.

The football player had a very good personality most of the time. He was a very nice and respectful young man, until he was crossed. Then he was completely out of control. He was bailed out of jail so many times it was crazy. No one ever told him he needed to control himself, they just pumped him full of his meds and he settled down.

Fast forward to today, my student went to college and is now a draftsman working a good job and doing his rap concerts on the side and the other kid is in federal prison. He finally got expelled from the school I was teaching at and went to another school. After football season was over and his usefulness was outlived by the coaches, they dropped him like a hot rock. He got in trouble and wasn't bailed out this time. When he got out of jail he broke into the school and burned it to the ground. Thanks to surveillance cameras being fed into an outside server it was all recorded. He'll be out in about another 15 years. He'll be 37 when he gets out of prison, if his temper doesn't put him in there longer.

[92xj]

With younger students I just tell them they have to control themsleves. With older students here is what I tell them. "You're not going to like hearing this, but it's the truth. Nobody cares that you have issues. Nobody cares why you have issues. People want you to do your job, show up on time and get along with other people. Your boss doesn't care how your grampa treated you, that your dad left you or that your uncle or whoever got a little too close. Sorry, reality is that no one cares. You have to do your job. That's what they care about. How do you think a cop is going to react to your issues? Do you think he's going to give you time out to collect yourself, or do you think your going to end up face down in the gravel with a boot in the back of your neck? Life isn't fair and it's not nice all the time. You can decide to control yourself or you can end up in prison, it's all pretty much up to you."

********, period.

You must work in the most horrible place in the World. I have never once worked for anyone that doesnt give two cents about my personal life. Yeah, its not important to the actual work being done at a place of buisness, but they actually care for me as a person and they also understand I have a life outside of work. Your quote to them is completely wrong and inappropriate. If I have a family member die, traumatic experience outside of work and it effects my attitude for the next couple of days or week, then yes, they ask and care and give time off for funerals. I think if your thinking is that no one that you work for cares about you other than the work you produce then are the one that has the issues and need to find yourself a better job and also some time to get away from everything and realize this whole work thing is not 100% about work or production, its about experience.

I understand the cop thing, if you do something illegal and get caught, yeah he's not going to care, but in the work place, your quote and thoughts are wrong.

[johnf]

I think there are differnces between adults and kids. Kids are trying to find "their place" and rebel against authority because they already know everything and who are you "old man" to tell me differently? LOL

Adults, just never grew out of it and feel the need to be in control. Apparenly daddy never slapped the bejesus out of them...

My son and I play fight all the time. He's 5 and really can't hurt me (much):boxing:. When we are doing it we are both laughing and he knows it's for fun. He's hit me a once when he was angry. I wore his a-- out. I told him you don't hit people when your mad. We talked about why and when we hit. Sometimes for fun when both people are playing, but only to protect ourselves from other people and never when we are mad. that was about 2 months ago and he's never done it again.

You have to give kids boudries and not let them move.

[Tominator]

I tend to agree with Ben. Your stance seems to be a little harsh. Fact is, a lot of people care. I know I care about my students and co-workers.

I will agree there are more than a few students out there that hide behind the clinical and "mom and dad" diagnosis of anger issues. I had one student last year that used to get tossed out of school on a regular basis for fighting or cussing a teacher out. He cussed me out one day as I tossed him out of the computer lab for cussing. I didn't return the anger, that's what he wanted. As he left cussing I just said "sorry bud, but you just can't cuss like that with ladies in the room..." A day later he and I were approaching in the hall, 30 feet away from me he stuck out his hand and stopped me and he said "Mr. Pileski, I just wanted to apologize for what I did yesterday." I said "that's good with me bud. I know you're a good guy, but you have to try and control the temper of yours, there's a lot of people out there that aren't as forgiving or won't understand." He said he knew and he was working on it.

I don't have all the answers, glad I don't, makes me want to learn more, but seems to me the understanding role goes a lot further than the "boot on the neck" role.

[Randy]

I'm whipping up a batch of biscuits and gravy, I'll be back to this one in a bit... LOL

[johnf]

********, period.

You must work in the most horrible place in the World. I have never once worked for anyone that doesnt give two cents about my personal life. Yeah, its not important to the actual work being done at a place of buisness, but they actually care for me as a person and they also understand I have a life outside of work. Your quote to them is completely wrong and inappropriate. If I have a family member die, traumatic experience outside of work and it effects my attitude for the next couple of days or week, then yes, they ask and care and give time off for funerals. I think if your thinking is that no one that you work for cares about you other than the work you produce then are the one that has the issues and need to find yourself a better job and also some time to get away from everything and realize this whole work thing is not 100% about work or production, its about experience.

I understand the cop thing, if you do something illegal and get caught, yeah he's not going to care, but in the work place, your quote and thoughts are wrong.

I'm not talking about something that happened today or last week, but people bringing up things that happened years before and using that as an excuse to be a jerk all the time. Can you tell me that some guy who flies off the handle every time something doesn't go his way, or someone looks at him the wrong way is going to get patted on the back every time and told it's ok, becuase he's got issues. Are you going to be buddies with someone who throws crap around, makes a jerk of himself screams and cusses and then blames it on his dad leaving when he was two years old? I'm not.

[johnf]

I tend to agree with Ben. Your stance seems to be a little harsh. Fact is, a lot of people care. I know I care about my students and co-workers.

I will agree there are more than a few students out there that hide behind the clinical and "mom and dad" diagnosis of anger issues. I had one student last year that used to get tossed out of school on a regular basis for fighting or cussing a teacher out. He cussed me out one day as I tossed him out of the computer lab for cussing. I didn't return the anger, that's what he wanted. As he left cussing I just said "sorry bud, but you just can't cuss like that with ladies in the room..." A day later he and I were approaching in the hall, 30 feet away from me he stuck out his hand and stopped me and he said "Mr. Pileski, I just wanted to apologize for what I did yesterday." I said "that's good with me bud. I know you're a good guy, but you have to try and control the temper of yours, there's a lot of people out there that aren't as forgiving or won't understand." He said he knew and he was working on it.

I don't have all the answers, glad I don't, makes me want to learn more, but seems to me the understanding role goes a lot further than the "boot on the neck" role.

I care about my students and co-workers. I don't however want my students ending up in prison. The truth is that that kind of behavior will eventually cause them to get there or be alone with no friends. I do teach them not to allow themselves to get out of control. I stop them before it starts and ask. "Do you really want this to turn into something that's going to get you in real trouble, or do you want to control yourself" 99% of the time they settle down. I had a student that graduated last year that was coddled by all his teachers and he never got any better. I didn't coddle him a bit and after 3 years if I saw him "bulling up" all I had to do was look at him and he settled down.

He could do it on his own, he just chose not to. It's a self control issue, not an illness.

I don't do the boot to the neck roll, but I think it's important for kids to know it's a reality that they may face. Some of them have seen it and some have been under the boot.

It's all about understanding that at some point there will be real consequences to their actions that may affect the rest of their lives.

Edited August 11, 2010 by johnf

[redkneck]

I totally understand where you're coming from John. I have a great boss and our management group is truly like a small family. BUT.... I can assure you he doesn't give a rat's red one if I feel like my father didn't hug me enough as a child and now I want to have a pity party. We have a purpose at work that's larger than our individual problems.

I get what you're saying and your tough love approach is ok with me.

[Tominator]

With older students here is what I tell them. "You're not going to like hearing this, but it's the truth. Nobody cares that you have issues. Nobody cares why you have issues. People want you to do your job, show up on time and get along with other people. Your boss doesn't care how your grampa treated you, that your dad left you or that your uncle or whoever got a little too close. Sorry, reality is that no one cares.

I care about my students and co-workers.

So you care, or you don't care? Make up my mind.

[Dawg]

I see where you are coming from John, I see where you are coming from Ben and Chris. I agree to a certain point with each of you.

For instance, I have an employee who was engaged and they split up. He was pretty tore up about it. Just so happens the mother and step father of the girl also works here. Long story short, he came in to my office and wanted to tell his side of the story, at the same time the mother of the girl called me and wanted to tell me their side of the story. I listened to them and told the guy that I understand what it's like to go through that kind of stuff and I wasn't going to get involved in their personal affairs but he needed to keep his anger out of the work place. I was understanding of his situation but also made it clear that their was still a job to do and he has a part in it.

As for the folks who want to blame childhood mishaps for their anger issues when they are "grown up"........that's a bunch of hogwash. The just need to get a big slap of reality upside the noggin.

[Randy]

I was that kid you are talking about. Not enough time in the day to tell you everything I went through. Was it my parents, or my teachers fault. No. I made a lot of choices because I knew everything. It took me many trips to jail and over a year in a "home" to realize, I was an idiot. I hurt many people, including the ones that mattered most, my parents. The truth of the matter is, if mom and dad didn't love me SO much and hand out a little "tough love", (ie. calling the police amongst other things) I would have ended up in prison myself instead of working in one. Wisconsin has a program that helps kids get through their issues. I was fortunate enough to be able to go too that program. Many do not due to parents that don't care enough to send them there. Is sending your kids out of the home for a year bad parenting or is it the hardest thing that loving parents could ever have to do in their lives. My parents can answer that one unfortunatley.

I'm not really sure what the answer is. Every kid is different and if you told me I'd end up in prison, I'd a said meet you there... After I got done calling you every name in the book and punching the princible. Then they would suspend me for a few days and I could catch up on my sleep from partying all night. I don't think it's from not having a father at home, atleast I hope not. My kids are now in kind of the same situation. If they disobey, they pay the penalty. They know dad aways wins. LOL

[redkneck]

I was that kid you are talking about.

Me too Randy. I was expelled my junior year, took a lawyer to get me back in school. Had great parents, just a bad attitude. It took a huge slap in the face and the prospect of reform school to change my ways. I did though and graduated with honors in college due to that slap.

[wtnhunt]

Don't honestly think your poll can be answered John, not by me at least. I truly believe there are people out there with real health(mental health) related problems that have direct effect on how they handle/deal with day to day stress which is displayed in how they deal with controlling their anger, also think there are no shortage of people out there who claim to have an illness(make excuses for their actions) when there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.

[Newarcher]

Well, I can't say....I would say it's 50/50 honestly.

I believe that there are bad seeds who are bad from birth....seen bad blood regenerated through generations. Some is environment but some of it is that blood is thicker than water.

My sister in law is adopted and we wondered how--growing up in a very conservative family who saved their money and were very socially conservative--she ended up being a flaming liberal. Well, until we met her mother who she had never met before--then we figured it out. They were just alike.

Others have it bred into them via their environment. I was in a sandwich shop with two black 30 something women and one of their kids who was maybe 5. A cop came in and stood behind me in line and that kid got under the table and was acting like a smart butt laughing and telling the cop "don't take me to jail". The women about fell out thinking that it was the funniest thing they'd ever seen. That's raising.

I used to think ADD/ADHD was a farce.....a silly way for parents to drug their kids into zombie like states to keep from having to deal with them. That was until I had a kid who is ADD. Now I have no doubt as to whether its real or not.

Lots of misconceptions out there. I think each case has to be taken case by case. Maybe the football player could have been rehabilitated if he had a mentor to teach him how to act/react....some of it just that culture of 'you luked at me hahrd, so i had to kills him'. Ignorant.

New

[dbHunterNY]

It depends. You could probably understand why they act the way they do if you're given a reason regarding a personal problem they had or experienced. However, no matter what they are responsible for there actions and should be called out when they act out. It doesn't make things ok, but you could probably understand many times why they do it.

[johnf]

Don't honestly think your poll can be answered John, not by me at least. I truly believe there are people out there with real health(mental health) related problems that have direct effect on how they handle/deal with day to day stress which is displayed in how they deal with controlling their anger, also think there are no shortage of people out there who claim to have an illness(make excuses for their actions) when there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.

There are people out there who have real mental problems and not being able to control themselves is a symptom. Bipoler people for instance have lots of big mood swings and that can be helped with medicines. I've had those kids in class and they are consistant with thier behavior, don't seem to have any remorse and it's a lot more than anger that they can't control. I'm not talking about those kids, I'm talking about kids who give some sort of story for why they can't control their anger.

I lived in 19 different houses from the time I was 6 till I graduated high school. I went to 8 different schools, my house burned down twice, I had an old man unsuccessfully try to molest me when I was 10, my parents both worked nights and I was raised for some time by my older sisters.

Everyone has a sob story of some sort. It's not a ligitimate reason to be an --- hole.

[johnf]

Well, I can't say....I would say it's 50/50 honestly.

I believe that there are bad seeds who are bad from birth....seen bad blood regenerated through generations. Some is environment but some of it is that blood is thicker than water.

My sister in law is adopted and we wondered how--growing up in a very conservative family who saved their money and were very socially conservative--she ended up being a flaming liberal. Well, until we met her mother who she had never met before--then we figured it out. They were just alike.

Others have it bred into them via their environment. I was in a sandwich shop with two black 30 something women and one of their kids who was maybe 5. A cop came in and stood behind me in line and that kid got under the table and was acting like a smart butt laughing and telling the cop "don't take me to jail". The women about fell out thinking that it was the funniest thing they'd ever seen. That's raising.

I used to think ADD/ADHD was a farce.....a silly way for parents to drug their kids into zombie like states to keep from having to deal with them. That was until I had a kid who is ADD. Now I have no doubt as to whether its real or not.

Lots of misconceptions out there. I think each case has to be taken case by case. Maybe the football player could have been rehabilitated if he had a mentor to teach him how to act/react....some of it just that culture of 'you luked at me hahrd, so i had to kills him'. Ignorant.

New

ADD/ADHD are real just grosely over diagnosed. The kids that I've had in class that were ligitimately ADD/ADHD I have rarely had discipline problems with. So many parents attribute that to not being able to conrol their behavior and having discipline problems. The cases that I've seen the kids who were truely ADD simply could not pay attention without thier meds, they were still good kids and well behaived, just scatter brained and easlily distracted. I would guess 80-90% of the kids diagnosed are just discipline problems who's parents refuse to control. My daughter is add and has never been sent to the office for showing out in class. She has gotten in trouble for not finishing work, daydreaming and loosing track of everything she owns. We don't treat her with meds, but through deit. It works a bit, but the drugs made her crazy so we took her off of them.

[Newarcher]

ADD/ADHD are real just grosely over diagnosed. The kids that I've had in class that were ligitimately ADD/ADHD I have rarely had discipline problems with. So many parents attribute that to not being able to conrol their behavior and having discipline problems. The cases that I've seen the kids who were truely ADD simply could not pay attention without thier meds, they were still good kids and well behaived, just scatter brained and easlily distracted. I would guess 80-90% of the kids diagnosed are just discipline problems who's parents refuse to control. My daughter is add and has never been sent to the office for showing out in class. She has gotten in trouble for not finishing work, daydreaming and loosing track of everything she owns. We don't treat her with meds, but through deit. It works a bit, but the drugs made her crazy so we took her off of them.

I concur....my son has never been a discipline problem at home, church or school. He tends to hyperfocus on things he likes and is easily distracted by noises and external stimuli. He does his homework easier if he has a radio or TV going, same as me at that age.

Immediately upon trying the first medication, his school performance went through the roof whereas he was doing poorly at the onset. He could do the work and if you asked him what 6+6 is he could easily tell you 12. But put a full page of math in front of him and he would just freeze up. Now, he is fine. There isn't a pill that can make you smarter or more capable, just one that removes barriers.

Best of luck with your child.

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[johnf]

I concur....my son has never been a discipline problem at home, church or school. He tends to hyperfocus on things he likes and is easily distracted by noises and external stimuli. He does his homework easier if he has a radio or TV going, same as me at that age.

Immediately upon trying the first medication, his school performance went through the roof whereas he was doing poorly at the onset. He could do the work and if you asked him what 6+6 is he could easily tell you 12. But put a full page of math in front of him and he would just freeze up. Now, he is fine. There isn't a pill that can make you smarter or more capable, just one that removes barriers.

Best of luck with your child.

New

Couldn't do the meds with ours. She got VERY VIOLENT on the meds. She was a D student without them and after 10 weeks was a C student. She would have horrible fits of rage, hitting, screaming and banging her head on things. Our daughter is one of the kindest sweetest dispositioned kids I've ever known. That just wasn't her. We decided we would rather have a happy, loving D student. We've worked on the homework at home and study long hours with her and have gotten her grades up to a C+ average. My wife and I were both A/B students and it's hard to accept a child that's not, but I would rather her be happy. It's not like she doesn't try hard.

[Newarcher]

Couldn't do the meds with ours. She got VERY VIOLENT on the meds. She was a D student without them and after 10 weeks was a C student. She would have horrible fits of rage, hitting, screaming and banging her head on things. Our daughter is one of the kindest sweetest dispositioned kids I've ever known. That just wasn't her. We decided we would rather have a happy, loving D student. We've worked on the homework at home and study long hours with her and have gotten her grades up to a C+ average. My wife and I were both A/B students and it's hard to accept a child that's not, but I would rather her be happy. It's not like she doesn't try hard.

I feel for you my friend, there are really no easy choices. We clearly saw that there was a real issue....he just couldn't focus. Each day I give him that pill, I wonder if there's not some other way and I hope and pray that he eventually grows out of it or learns to cope so we can stop the meds.

It's an odd paradox. I see how much good the medication helps and how much happier he is with those barriers removed but still hate giving it to him. He was floundering like a fish out of water without them. We didn't notice a huge change in behavior because he wasn't hyper but the very first night we gave him the medication, he took a book to dinner (ate out that night) and read it in the restaurant. He also was tested in a couple subjects one or two grade levels behind before the medication and two levels ahead after the medication on the same tests. There's no pill that can make you smarter, there just isn't so despite still having reservations, it seems the only choice we currently have.

Re your daughter, I certainly respect your decision....its mind blowingly hard either way. Very difficult decisions with these munchkins and I hope that, like me, your daughter's switch turns on and she gets up there to the A/B status. My switch flipped around 4th grade and I became a good student without any meds. I could probably have been diagnosed but I learned coping mechanisms and went on to graduate as one of the top 5 students in my MBA class. So there's hope...I think!

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[johnf]

My daughter is going into the 8th grade. May start back with the pills. Don't remember it being worse than her PMS. :chair:

[Newarcher]

My daughter is going into the 8th grade. May start back with the pills. Don't remember it being worse than her PMS. :chair:

Ha, we can debate ADD/ADHD/Anger Management but there's no denying PMS is very very real!

New