The Crossbow Saga Continues

[buckee]

Thank God for people like Othmar , who always takes the common sense approach to debates. You can't debate against common sense without looking a tad foolish. Othmar has the whole debate covered very well.

The Crossbow Saga Continues

© By Othmar Vohringer

Without fail every year when hunting season approaches a heated debate about crossbows unfolds. These days it is becoming even more so as each year more North American jurisdictions declare the crossbows legal for all hunters, not just the physically challenged.

It never ceases to amaze me listening to the arguments from those that oppose crossbows as legitimate archery or as an ethically unfit hunting weapon. It is interesting to note at this point that when I ask those that are against the use of crossbows, “Have you ever shot a crossbow?” the majority answered with “No”. This makes me wonder how these people “know” that a crossbow is not archery tackle if they never shot one.

Well as a hunter that uses a compound bow and a crossbow I feel entitled to add my opinion about this controversy. My hope is that I am able to provide the argument with some much need unbiased facts rather then the usual hype and myth that permeates the crossbow discussion.

One of the biggest myths is that the crossbow is not really a bow but rather a gun because it is styled after a gun. Actually the opposite could be true since the crossbow in its basic form has been in use for about 1,000 years before the first firearm was invented. With that fact established it would be sensible to argue that the firearm is modelled on the crossbow and not the other way around.

The earliest mention of crossbows can be found In China from 4,000 years ago. That would make another argument that the crossbow is not a traditional weapon moot. Four thousand years makes the crossbow more of a traditional weapon then the compound bow and at least as traditional as the longbow.

Some of the most fervent opponents label the crossbow as the perfect poachers tool. Where do they get that idea? Yes a crossbow is silent, but so is a compound and traditional bow. A poacher, being a lawbreaker, most certainly would like to carry a weapon that could be concealed. A crossbow is quite bulky and hard to conceal. A poacher would be better off with a traditional takedown bow or a rifle with a silencer that he can stick under his coat or into a pant leg.

Some say that crossbow hunters have an unfair advantage to compound or traditional bowhunters because they can shoot longer distances. This is not true. A crossbow has about the same capabilities as a modern compound bow. The trajectory of the arrow is about the same of that of a compound bow. However, an arrow shot from a compound bow retains more downrange energy than the bolt of a crossbow. This is due to the fact that the crossbow bolt is shorter and lighter than a normal arrow and thus quickly loses killing power at distances over 40 yards. Another “unfair advantage” argument is that it takes less practise to become proficient with a crossbow than with a compound or traditional bow. Like I said, I shoot compound bows and crossbows and I have found that both need equal practice to become proficient with. Since when is less time to become proficient with a hunting weapon an unfair advantage? Has hunting become a sport where success is measured in the degrees of difficulty it takes to achieve the goal?

What really cracks me up is when I hear things like “crossbows are unethical”. Ethics seem to be the magical word that is used for everything that is being opposed when in fact it has more to do with personal opinions. A crossbow, like any other hunting weapon, is an inanimate thing. It has no mind, no heart and no feelings. How can it be ethical or unethical? It’s not the weapon that is unethical, it’s the people using that instrument that have to make the conscious choice to use it in an ethical or unethical manner. There is no evidence whatsoever that a hunter with unethical tendencies chooses a crossbow over every other hunting weapon.

Here we are in times where hunters and hunting face extremely serious challenges that will decide the survival of our hunting heritage and all we can do is vilify our own for no other reason than for the choice they make in pursuing the same happiness we do. What really disturbs me is the fact that when we’re hardly capable of maintaining our numbers, let alone gaining new hunters, bowhunting organizations find it necessary to feed the controversy with unfounded myth and hype about the crossbow to further their own short sighted and selfish agendas. Yet these same organizations keep complaining that bowhunter numbers keep dropping without an end in sight. Would it not be wise then to endorse other styles of bowhunting rather than utter nonsense like: “If crossbows are permitted in the regular bowhunting season we will loose our quality of the hunt and the woods will be to crowded.” By the way, in American states and Canada where crossbow hunters take part in the regular bowhunting season this “overcrowding” and “loss of quality” (whatever the heck that means) factor has not occurred. The majority of bowhunters that share the woods with crossbow hunters claim that there is no noticeable difference. Enough said!

This blog post has been brought to you by Othmar Vohringer Outdoors

Edited September 10, 2010 by buckee

[ODH]

i started with a crossbow. I believe that it was more difficult to use than my Mathews imo. I think crossbows are a good instrument to hunting and i consider them archery equipment.

[Texan_Til_I_Die]

Good article, very well thought out. And I suspect it may ruffle a few feathers around here.

I don't own a crossbow, but I did get a chance to shoot one the other day. It was a hoot! I may have to invest in one someday just to have something different to hunt with.

[johnf]

I've not shot my horton much since getting into compound, but it's a great alternative when in a ground blind.

[mikebohio]

i still think we should all just use sharpened sticks

[RUTNSTRUT]

the author is very obviously pro-crossbow. Why else not cover ALL aspects when comparing them to a vertical bow. You know such as drawing,holding, just little non important things.

[layin on the smackdown]

I really didn't even want to read this thread, which is why i passed on reading the initial post...

A crossbow is a crossbow...who really cares..If any of you compound archers have such a darn problem with crossbows, then go shoot one...

I am a solid archer (compound and decent with a recurve), and i feel that my capabilites would be seriously comprimised if i were forced to shoot a cross bow...in terms of yardage, energy and accuracy past 30 yds, the compound bow has the edge hands down. If you think differently, then you need to do a little hands on experiment and a little hands on field testing - or you just suck as a regular archer period.

In IL, you either have to have a doctors letter or be 62 or older to use a crossbow...I think that is outstanding - and i hope its the same when i cant draw back enough poundage on my compound to be legal...

Anyone who thinks crossbows are a "done deal" and have better accuracy, range, stability, and consistency than a compound need to get their head out of whatever orface they put it in - or learn about it before you rant...

Like i said, i didnt even bother reading any of the above, but i figured i would say what needs to be said before the crossbow thing got put in the wrong place.

[Strut10]

the author is very obviously pro-crossbow. Why else not cover ALL aspects when comparing them to a vertical bow. You know such as drawing,holding, just little non important things.

Bingo!!

Sounds like this Othmar fellow also writes news stories for CNN on the side.

I don't think I need to explain my reasons for my rejection of crossbows or the "accomplishments" of those who use them. I guess if they are legal in your jurisdiction, use them if you are so inclined. Just don't ask to use one on my property.

[Doc]

I remember the arguments in the days of old when compounds were being discussed as legitimate weapons to be added the bow seasons. Oh those old-timers were convinced that we were setting a precedent that would be used in the future to add other more inappropriate weapons into the bowseasons, and that eventually bowhunting would lose its identity and purpose. Of course being a young brash upstart, I argued the foolishness of such notions.

Who would ever have guessed how right those old-timers really were? That's exactly what is happening today. The compound is being used as a precedent for inclusion of the crossbow. They nailed it. Of course in order to use it as a precedent you have to ignore the fact that all the principles of archery shooting still apply with the compound, the stance, the draw, the anchor, the bow arm consistancy, the grip consistancy, the follow-through. It's all the same whether you shoot a recurve, longbow or compound ........ exactly the same. Which one of these shooting disciplines do you use with a crossbow? Yes, that's right ...... none of them. But we'll overlook that as we make room for one more weapon crammed into bow seasons.

Forget all that stuff, it doesn't matter, the compound still serves as the precedent for stuffing in the crossbow. That's the beauty of precedents. We can make up excuses for modifying seasons to include whatever kind of weapon we want, even those that don't make any sense. We can keep at it until you can't even remember what the actual reason was that you had a special bow season to begin with. Makes you wonder what sort of contraption the crossbow will serve as the precedent for at some point in the future doesn't it?

[bfletch7441]

I'm a bowhunter. I enjoy shooting my bow. God forbid something ever happens and I can't shoot my bow anymore, you'd better believe I'll be investing in a crossbow. All you fellas that shun their use and quickly say they'd never use one, I would just remind you to never say never.

Ben

[Grady269]

They legalized Cross-Bows in VA a couple of years ago and I went out and bought one. My Bow-Hunting excuse had always been I just did not have time for another hobby. What I found out was it was very accurate out to 30 yds and I killed several deer with it. The problem is though that you have to KNOW your yardages because the arrow drops like any other arrow. You also have to know where your fingers are or you will lose them. Lastly it is not superior to a regular bow because if you practice, know your yardages, and set up your hunt you might as well use a regular bow.

I sold mine last year after hunting season for the same reason I did not bow hunt anymore, not enought time (plus I like to shoot guns better). I think what cross bows do accomplish though is bring a lot of in-experienced hunters into the woods without sufficient practice or ability to estimate yardage to cripple up a lot of deer.

[RUTNSTRUT]

I'm a bowhunter. I enjoy shooting my bow. God forbid something ever happens and I can't shoot my bow anymore, you'd better believe I'll be investing in a crossbow. All you fellas that shun their use and quickly say they'd never use one, I would just remind you to never say never.

Ben

I have no problem with the disabled or elderly using one as it has been here in Wi for many years. I am totally against full inclusion of crossbows in the regular archery season. If you are able bodied there is no reason to not shoot a vertical bow.

[Rhino]

...all the principles of archery shooting still apply with the compound, the stance, the draw, the anchor, the bow arm consistancy, the grip consistancy, the follow-through. It's all the same whether you shoot a recurve, longbow or compound ........ exactly the same.

That part is the same but...Trad hunters don't use sights set or adjustable for known ranges. They don't use release aids with gun style triggers that make it much easier to perform a consistant string release. They also don't have the ability to draw and hold while their game approaches waiting for the shot opportunity. With today's letoffs it's not uncommon to be able to draw and hold for a minute or longer. The basics may be the same but there is a world of difference between the 2. It takes a lot more practice to shoot tight groups at 25 yards with a trad bow than it takes to shoot tight groups at 40 yards with a compound (AKA String Guns in the old days).

Thant's all I have to say on this subject...except I have no problem sharing the woods with Xbow hunters.

[RangerClay]

Bingo!!

Just don't ask to use one on my property.

Bingo!! There is my argument.

You don't want a crossbow on your propery...fine. It's your land, do as you see fit. But why can't I use one on mine? When did sportsmen start making decisions for other sportsmen?

About 20 years ago New York State banned the use of dogs to hunt bears. Personally I didn't see the need for dogs but when the bear hunters came looking for a petition signature to bring the dogs back I signed. Why would I do that? Because who am I to tell others how to hunt just because I don't agree with it. If they are getting outdoors and doing their thing then let them do it.

[redkneck]

the author is very obviously pro-crossbow. Why else not cover ALL aspects when comparing them to a vertical bow. You know such as drawing,holding, just little non important things.

Agreed 100%. I have no issues with x-bow hunters, but let's get real if we're going to have a discussion. Give a novice a well tuned X-Bow with scope and a novice a well-tuned compound, both sighted in and tell me who's shooting tight groups first. There's a reason you get a doc to sign off on X-bow permits, there's obviously a physical advantage involved in making the shot without drawing. Again, I'm not anti-xbow but I think the article is somewhat slanted, though some great points are made.

[Adjam5]

My issue with the crossbow is the SIMPLE fact, that was not addressed by the articles author is...

The Bow if you call it... does NOT have to be drawn in the presence of the animal. That in itself disqualifies it for archery season.

Compounds and recurves do have to be drawn in the presence of the game. The crossbow is point and shoot...like a firearm. The crossbow uses magnified opitcs, is shoulder steadied and aimed like a firearm. Point and shoot.

I know of the crossbows, history, limitations, sound and distance. Yes I have shot a crossbow. Hit the 20 yard bullseye the first time I EVER shot one. It was loud. Nothing like my Mathews or Recurve. Am I that good or does the crossbow bring a bit of cheating to flinging pointed sticks at game? I mean...do we really need to help success in the woods by introducing a superior weapon(point and shoot) to archery season? Yes, it is nice when we have a great day afield, especially when we bag something. Most of the time we don't bag anything, but we still had a great time.

Archery is meant to be a hard, difficult and demanding sport that requires practice and repetition. I can sight in my 30/30 for bullseyes, put it away in my safe for 5 years, take it out( with the same ammo) hit that bullseye again. The same for a crossbow( minus maybe some possible string stretch). Now if I stayed away from my Mathews for 5 years and picked it up. It would take me a while to get back in the groove.

I have no issue for hurt/disabled/seniors and vets to use ANY weapon they want in whatever season they want. But for healthy folks to want to hunt with a crossbow in archery season, NO.

[Dawg]

The article is a bit one sided but I have no problems with the crossbows.

[Strut10]

I have no issue for hurt/disabled/seniors and vets to use ANY weapon they want in whatever season they want. But for healthy folks to want to hunt with a crossbow in archery season, NO.

Well said.

I was in the bow shop the other nite to get a few adjustments made on Lil Strut's compound. A fellow about 60 was there thinking about getting a crossbow. Said he just couldn't pull a bow anymore. I handed him Lil's bow, set at 41#, and said "can you pull this one?" He ripped it right back. Then I told him of Lil and my Mrs. laying the smackdown on numerous deer with bows like that. Left him thinking.

I think there's a lot of excuses pro-crossbow. Not too many of them good.

I place a zero "accomplishment" value on any deer taken by an able-bodied hunter with a crossbow.

But................like I said before..........if it's legal where you are and it makes you feel good, knock yourself out.

[GWSmith]

Hi Doc...Hope your doing well and have a great season.

I just saw the post and knew I'd find you here. Honestly wanted to wish you the best with what you choose to use

That pretty much goes for everyone...just get out there and use it!!!

[redkneck]

I place a zero "accomplishment" value on any deer taken by an able-bodied hunter with a crossbow.

That's a little harsh Don, what about able-bodied folks that shoot deer with a rifle?

Crossbows are here to stay. They're very much similar to bows, but have a lot of advantages, esp those that Anthony mentioned. I just think the article should have pointed that out.

[Strut10]

That's a little harsh Don, what about able-bodied folks that shoot deer with a rifle?

At least the rifle guys are out there with their like. None of them are pretending to be doing something they are not.

I'll stick to my harsh opinion.

[Doc]

That part is the same but...Trad hunters don't use sights set or adjustable for known ranges. They don't use release aids with gun style triggers that make it much easier to perform a consistant string release. They also don't have the ability to draw and hold while their game approaches waiting for the shot opportunity. With today's letoffs it's not uncommon to be able to draw and hold for a minute or longer. The basics may be the same but there is a world of difference between the 2. It takes a lot more practice to shoot tight groups at 25 yards with a trad bow than it takes to shoot tight groups at 40 yards with a compound (AKA String Guns in the old days).

Thant's all I have to say on this subject...except I have no problem sharing the woods with Xbow hunters.

Let's straighten out a few of those minor points. Since I was around back in the days of adoption of compounds, I can pretty well describe just what was accepted traditional archery equipment back then. I had a sight on my recurve long before the compound was accepted and it actually didn't function any different than the sights of today. There were people using releases although I never did (too cheap to spend the money). By the way the idea of a release goes all the way back to the "Turkish ring" used centuries ago. Today's generation seems to think that archery gadgets and inventions didn't begin until the advent of the compound bow.....lol.

As far as the reduced hold weight, That is the ONLY true difference between a compound and recurve or longbow. And from that one sole difference, people are now claiming the precedent has been set for the inclusion of crossbows into archery seasons. If you can make that wild leap, imagine what kinds of different equipment future generations will be able to justify using the same principles of precedent. As I said before, there will come a day when all hunters will be wondering just why there is a special archery season. Already I hear gunhunters questioning the reasoning behind our having a "special" season. The inclusion of a crossbow doesn't exactly bolster our case and the inclusion of who-know-what in the future based on the fact that archery season definitions can be and are being randomly bastardized, will continue to blur that reasoning for the special seasons. It's not like we don't already have muzzleloader hunters eyeballing the archery season here in NY.

Doc

[Strut10]

It's not like we don't already have muzzleloader hunters eyeballing the archery season here in NY.

Doc

Enjoy it. One day you will look back on this time as "the good old days".

Muzzleloaders have already gotten a week of PA archery season.

[Tominator]

I used up all my arguing on this subject last year, lol.

Have fun fellars. Get out there and hunt is what I say. :drink:

[Bob LeBlanc]

Here are a couple of my thoughts / considerations / reservations around the crossbow...

It drives me nuts when people say that the crossbow is no different than a compound bow.

That is an over-simplification...and it is not true.

I hate when people try to 'justify' a crossbow as archery tackle, simply because it shoots a projectile that resembles an arrow, and looks like a 'bow' lain on its side.

It is NOT a bow...it is a CROSSbow...Accept it for what it is...understand it for what it is not.

When shooting either a compound or trad bow, the archer is integral to the accurate delivery of the arrow. Their form is part of the mechanism that sends the arrow, accurately, down range.

That is not the case with the crossbow. Sitting the bolt on the rail removes the mechanics necessary of the archer.

The archer himself will always be the most limiting factor in the effective, accurate range of shooting a bow.

On the other hand, the most limiting factor of the crossbow is the mechanism...the device itself. Its lack of widespread acceptance hasn't seen much progression in its design. The basic platform, however, has MUCH room for advancement, and you only have to look as far as the TAC15 to realize that the potential is there to remove the crossbow's qualification as a limited range weapon.

I have no qualms, whatsoever, in the use of the crossbow for hunting...but it is not archery tackle.

It is a crossbow. Give it its own season. Maybe even overlap or run it concurrent with existing archery seasons...but keep it licensed separate from archery. It's potential for 'improvement' is relatively untapped, and design and mechanical enhancement will see it move from a trully limited range weapon.

As consideration...

Remember when the muzzleloader became recognized / validated as a hunting gun? States and provinces accepted them as 'limited range' guns and granted them special seasons. After all, back then, shooting 150 yards with one was a feat.

Nowadays, there are in-line muzzleloaders shooting 250 and beyond...essentially equating the performance of centerfire rifles...and that was never the intent of their special season.

The same will be true of the crossbow...the limitation is the device, not the archer.

Just my 2 cents with a nickle's change...

Bob