cull or no?

[wtnhunt]

Had a pretty good discussion with our game warden last night, got to talking about some of the goofy racked young bucks I am seeing, and he said we probably need to get rid of them. Told him with young bucks and given that some 1.5 year old bucks are only spikes that we thought some of them might grow out of these goofy characteristics, but then looking at some of the pics we have lately it got me to wondering if he may be right that some of these may need to be removed. Always thought determining a buck to cull out that you wanted to wait until at least 2.5 to 3.5.

So, thoughts on this deer, cull buck or no? Keep in mind we each get 3 bucks, so taking out a misfit does not end the season.

[Ethan Givan]

I say cull on that one, but im no expert.

[TN Bucknasty]

Had a pretty good discussion with our game warden last night, got to talking about some of the goofy racked young bucks I am seeing, and he said we probably need to get rid of them. Told him with young bucks and given that some 1.5 year old bucks are only spikes that we thought some of them might grow out of these goofy characteristics, but then looking at some of the pics we have lately it got me to wondering if he may be right that some of these may need to be removed. Always thought determining a buck to cull out that you wanted to wait until at least 2.5 to 3.5.

So, thoughts on this deer, cull buck or no? Keep in mind we each get 3 bucks, so taking out a misfit does not end the season.

Based on my research and on my own personal experience, I'd have to say no. I've hunted places where culling has been going on for 20 or even 30 years, and they still have the same types of bucks that everyone else has.

There is some new research out there that suggests that antler traits are passed down from the mother. It makes sense. If antler characteristics were only passed down by bucks, then each buck would have a rack that was just like his father's. Research has proven time and time again that culling free ranging deer herds does not work.

I would have to say that it would especially not work on a small farm in West, TN. How many times do we see the same deer year after year? I have calculated that 96% of the bucks I see either never return to my property after spring green up, or they change so radically that I can't recognize them. It is actually pretty rare for a deer to hang around for more than a few months before moving or disappearing. Basically, we aren't keeping the same herd of deer year after year, so we'd just be culling some stranger's deer.

Granted, there are people out there who are genuinely trying to manipulate the genes of a herd, but I think that "a cull buck" where we live is usually a deer that someone shot and is ashamed to show their buddies. Maybe they just wanted to kill one and used culling as an excuse. Maybe they tell themselves "that deer never would have amounted to much" to make themselves feel better. Most of the "culls" I've seen are yearlings. I have killed some 3.5 year old deer that were not trophy class animals at all, but I wouldn't call that culling. I killed a 3.5 year old four point two years ago with nothing but 1 inch brows and 5.5 inch bases. Some may have looked at it as a cull, but to me, he was just a 3.5 year old deer. Regardless of what kind of headgear he had, he was going to die.

Edited November 9, 2010 by TN Bucknasty

[arrow32]

I'd say yes.

Yes they might move on and yes they might become something at some point in time. But at the same time I've watched a ton of bucks year after year trying to kill them so who's to say that deer move areas?lol

[wtnhunt]

There is some new research out there that suggests that antler traits are passed down from the mother. It makes sense. If antler characteristics were only passed down by bucks, then each buck would have a rack that was just like his father's. Research has proven time and time again that culling free ranging deer herds does not work.

Have read some on that as well. Some good studies on that as well as the "once a spike always a spike" fallacy. Does without any doubt do pose a role in the traits passed on, however it is gonna be pretty difficult to determine which does are the ones with bad genetics unless you are able to watch their offspring year after year.

I would have to say that it would especially not work on a small farm in West, TN. How many times do we see the same deer year after year? I have calculated that 96% of the bucks I see either never return to my property after spring green up, or they change so radically that I can't recognize them. It is actually pretty rare for a deer to hang around for more than a few months before moving disappearing. Basically, we aren't keeping the same herd of deer year after year, so we'd just be culling some stranger's deer.

Agree to some degree. We do rarely see the same bucks year after year, for the most part because so few here actually make it through. That said we do occasionally have a few we had seen previous years that are still around the next year.

The way our luck goes, this one will somehow miss getting whacked by the poachers or those who hold the brown its down mindset hunting the properties behind us and end up being the dominant buck in this area down the road.

[TN Bucknasty]

Have read some on that as well. Some good studies on that as well as the "once a spike always a spike" fallacy. Does without any doubt do pose a role in the traits passed on, however it is gonna be pretty difficult to determine which does are the ones with bad genetics unless you are able to watch their offspring year after year.

Agree to some degree. We do rarely see the same bucks year after year, for the most part because so few here actually make it through. That said we do occasionally have a few we had seen previous years that are still around the next year.

The way our luck goes, this one will somehow miss getting whacked by the poachers or those who hold the brown its down mindset hunting the properties behind us and end up being the dominant buck in this area down the road.

I guess that's why I've adopted the "Anything 3.5 years old and over is a TN trophy" philosophy. I hunt age here more than anything. Horns are just a bonus.

[rhine16]

I don't have the time to go into great detail, and look back for the link to the research right now, but Mississippi State recently did a study where they followed bucks throughout their first 4 years to check on the racks... mainly to prove that the old "once a spike always a spike" quote is not true.

On the basis of their study, that buck is by no means a cull. When I get a chance, I'll get the link for you William.

[arrow32]

That would be good to read when you get the time. Very interested in that rhine

[msman825]

I don't have the time to go into great detail, and look back for the link to the research right now, but Mississippi State recently did a study where they followed bucks throughout their first 4 years to check on the racks... mainly to prove that the old "once a spike always a spike" quote is not true.

On the basis of their study, that buck is by no means a cull. When I get a chance, I'll get the link for you William.

great point, those young so called culls might be a super star with a little age on them, I'd be will to say that deer in pic is very young, that could be his first set of horns Edited November 9, 2010 by msman825

[DropTine49]

From what I have seen, I don't really know either. I know that my uncle killed a 4.5 year old 5 point this weekend and everything except the mass was smaller than that deer. If I knew for a fact that there were bigger and more symmetrical deer of the same age on my property then I would shoot him just to allow the others to breed the does that he would breed.

[Ravin R10 man]

If your season isnt going so well..i thought you said that recently...he would make a good "meat" buck

[huntnfish]

I have to agree with some of the other post. Seems like recent research has proven that it is next to impossible to improve the genetics in a certain area. Let grow another year and see what happens.

[Rhino]

I think that buck is too young to tell yet William. I'll forgo going into a long discussion about culling. Even deer biologist can't agree about it among themselves.

[ckrich]

I don't have the time to go into great detail, and look back for the link to the research right now, but Mississippi State recently did a study where they followed bucks throughout their first 4 years to check on the racks... mainly to prove that the old "once a spike always a spike" quote is not true.

On the basis of their study, that buck is by no means a cull. When I get a chance, I'll get the link for you William.

I've read a few studies along the same lines myself. I would really like to have that link as a reference.

[Randy]

One things for sure William, they stop growing when they're dead. Let him go a couple years and then decide. Heck, maybe one of the poachers in your area will get that one instead of one you REALLY want...

[GWSmith]

One things for sure William, they stop growing when they're dead. Let him go a couple years and then decide. Heck, maybe one of the poachers in your area will get that one instead of one you REALLY want...

Let him grow...Cull the Poachers!!!

[ruttinbuc]

They say a buck doesn't show up until he is 4 1/2. The bad part is most don't make it that far in a lot of areas. There are years when it seems everything walking is a spike or a fork horn. You would think that the next year would have a bunch of rack buck running around. Not always the case due to the natural displacement of the bucks along with the one week deer hunter who fills the tag with any buck.

I'd give that guy a chance to maybe show some improvement for next year if he stays in the neighborhood.

[wtnhunt]

Was not considering me killing this deer, I enjoy shooting them with the camera, was just curious on opinions on culling and criteria. Been some other posts on misfits and goofy racked bucks that also looked like younger deer.

I say cull on that one, but im no expert.

Warden is saying the same on the goofy racked bucks even though they are young. Have gotten that before from the previous warden on spikes. We have a good warden, very knowledgeable and I have a lot of respect for him, not sure I agree with him on this though.

I don't have the time to go into great detail, and look back for the link to the research right now, but Mississippi State recently did a study where they followed bucks throughout their first 4 years to check on the racks... mainly to prove that the old "once a spike always a spike" quote is not true.

On the basis of their study, that buck is by no means a cull. When I get a chance, I'll get the link for you William.

Appreciate that rhine, just post it whenever you get a chance. Read some interesting research as well on bucks like this being let go and was under the impression you start getting the better picture after 2.5. Depending on who you ask if a buck does not have brows at 2.5 there is a good chance he won't have them. Dr. James Kroll also had a segment on NAW regarding culling deer that was interesting a few years back.

If your season isnt going so well..i thought you said that recently...he would make a good "meat" buck

We do have some meat in the freezer from Wyoming, really not any pressure to add more meat. I may kill a doe myself later on, too close to the rut right now for that.

I think that buck is too young to tell yet William. I'll forgo going into a long discussion about culling. Even deer biologist can't agree about it among themselves.

Very good point Al, and kind of what I was getting at. Not sure why wildlife biologists working for the state and why game wardens are suggesting what they are regarding the young deer in regards to culling.

One things for sure William, they stop growing when they're dead. Let him go a couple years and then decide. Heck, maybe one of the poachers in your area will get that one instead of one you REALLY want...

Yep, that is true for sure Randy. Imagine the poachers are shooting anything they see, the last 2 that I caught on my neghbor did not even know what they shot or shot at. Pretty disgusting when you watch a 1.5 year old 14 inch 8 point day in and day out over a couple weeks time only for it to get whacked by some numbscal who was given permission by an unauthorized person to hunt a county property but shot the animal on property where he did not even have permission.

Let him grow...Cull the Poachers!!!

Ummmm well Gary, lets just say that we are forming a legal plan of attack on that issue.

They say a buck doesn't show up until he is 4 1/2. The bad part is most don't make it that far in a lot of areas. There are years when it seems everything walking is a spike or a fork horn. You would think that the next year would have a bunch of rack buck running around. Not always the case due to the natural displacement of the bucks along with the one week deer hunter who fills the tag with any buck.

I'd give that guy a chance to maybe show some improvement for next year if he stays in the neighborhood.

Seeing a bit of a mixed bag here this year Mike, have a few I have seen that were definitely bucks I want to see again in another year, that I have already passed on. Had a bachelor group of wide bucks coming around, one that was no doubt in my mind offspring from the wide 8 I killed last year.

Tennessee claims the age class we are seeing is rivaling that of some big buck states(Kentucky gets mentioned year after year), we don't see it here and quite possibly never will due to the liberal limits and the number of people who will not pass anything up. I have seen very few deer that were 4.5, but I have seen a few and have been fortunate enough to manage to kill a few.

[TN Bucknasty]

Tennessee claims the age class we are seeing is rivaling that of some big buck states(Kentucky gets mentioned year after year), we don't see it here and quite possibly never will due to the liberal limits and the number of people who will not pass anything up.

I have to agree with that 100%. The three straight months of gun and muzzle-loader hunting don't help much either. I will say however, that the age structure is much better than it was 15 years ago. I would think that cutting the limit to three bucks has a lot to do with that. I really got my education on how the majority of TN hunters feel about changing limits and seasons to improve age structure when I posted something about it on the TNdeer website a year or two ago. I thought I was going to have to hire a bodyguard.

I've heard every excuse and reason there is as to why TN doesn't have many big deer ranging from poor soil to bad genetics. I've seen first hand that TN buck can grow big by looking at the racks of 4.5 and especially 5.5 year old racks in the taxidermy shop. Our deer have a lot more potential than people realize.

[TN Bucknasty]

I have to agree with that 100%. The three straight months of gun and muzzle-loader hunting don't help much either. I will say however, that the age structure is much better than it was 15 years ago. I would think that cutting the limit to three bucks has a lot to do with that. I really got my education on how the majority of TN hunters feel about changing limits and seasons to improve age structure when I posted something about it on the TNdeer website a year or two ago. I thought I was going to have to hire a bodyguard.

I've heard every excuse and reason there is as to why TN doesn't have many big deer ranging from poor soil to bad genetics. I've seen first hand that TN buck can grow big by looking at the racks of 4.5 and especially 5.5 year old racks in the taxidermy shop. Our deer have a lot more potential than people realize.

Also, only about 10-15% of deer brought into the shop for mounting in any given year are 4.5 or older. We get a lot of 2.5's and 3.5's and people will often say, "Yeah boy, that's an old deer right there." When you age them, people are either in shock or denial. It's sad that so many people don't even know what a mature deer looks like.

[wtnhunt]

I have to agree with that 100%. The three straight months of gun and muzzle-loader hunting don't help much either. I will say however, that the age structure is much better than it was 15 years ago. I would think that cutting the limit to three bucks has a lot to do with that. I really got my education on how the majority of TN hunters feel about changing limits and seasons to improve age structure when I posted something about it on the TNdeer website a year or two ago. I thought I was going to have to hire a bodyguard.

I've heard every excuse and reason there is as to why TN doesn't have many big deer ranging from poor soil to bad genetics. I've seen first hand that TN buck can grow big by looking at the racks of 4.5 and especially 5.5 year old racks in the taxidermy shop. Our deer have a lot more potential than people realize.

Yep, the age is better than it was when you could kill what was the limit prior to the 3 buck statewide, 11 bucks in a year and no does with the rifle??? Definitely changes for the better for the herd by our states biologists, however I am not particularly fond of the continued liberal doe limits. Would be nice to see them take it a step further now and reduce the doe limits in places like this county and implement either a 2 buck statewide limit or an AR of some sort.

Have made some suggestions over the years to the twra ranging from changing the youth hunt criteria to suggesting rifle doe hunts. I don't know how much they actually consider that input, got a letter back from a woman from the twra the last year our youth hunt was for 10-16 year olds saying they would not consider making changes and to my surprise they changed the minimum age the following year to 6-16 and my oldest daughter killed her first deer that first season of the change at age 9 over the youth hunt weekend. Like to think they actually do listen to people who write in.

Not sure all of west TN necessarily has poor soil conditions, some pretty decent crop land around here and no doubt the type of habitat that deer should thrive in. Not sure why we don't see better mass with the older bucks around here, may have more to do with genetics as occasionally we do see some deer with decent mass, but for the most part what we see in 3.5 and the very rare 4.5 year olds they just do not typically have the type of mass they probably should and I don't think it is a result of nutrition or soil. We are starting to see some deer with wider racks around here, maybe mass will eventually see improvements as well, dunno.

On tndeer, that site is pretty useful, I have referred folks to their aging pictorial there many times. I used to be a member of their forums over there, but went to check in probably 2 years ago and my account was gone. In order to sign back up they wanted more information than I had to give for the last loan I took, so I skipped it at that time. lol.