Doc

One last message on this subject: Any New Yorkers that are interested in hunting discussions that are related to local (state) issues might want to check this forum out. It is absolutely in it's infancy and is suffering from way too few members, but if people start joining and participating, we will have one heck of a focused forum there with info and content that is relative to our own state. For those that were members of the old Empire forum, the format and content is nearly identical. Let's see if we can get a bunch of New Yorkers signed up and active. Doc

Isn't it something how even we hunters fall into that trap of picking and choosing what we will kill based on the "cuteness factor". That's a common flaw of animal rights wackos who will smack a fly, stomp an ant or poison a rat, but can't stand to have anybody shoot their favorites. (deer, bunnies, foxes, etc.). It's hard to figure, but even I have those kinds of feeling toward some species. Foxes and coyotes and even raccoons are too much like pet dogs. Can be hard to shoot them sometimes. But I can get by it.....lol. Doc

Notice that the eyes and nose are not pink. That apparently is not an albino, but rather it is simply a white deer (a product of a recessive color phase gene that all deer have). For some reason the recessive characteristics occasionally become dominant in individuals. Here in NY, we have a herd of white deer that live on and around the old Seneca Army Depot. This used to be a huge high-fenced military compound for ammo storage years ago. This strange phenomenon of a large portion of the herd there having that recessive gene become dominant went berserk there and the numbers of white deer are quite impressive. One might theorize that the high fence around this compound caused some level of inbreeding that forced the gene out into dominance. Of course that's just a personal theory (guess). I have never heard an official scientific explanation. Anyway, in the wild, this color phase is even more rare than the piebald, so your neighbor did indeed stumble upon a rarity. I'm thinking you are going to have a lot of great unique photo opportunities offered by this little critter. Doc

OK .......... All better. It accepted my registration this time. Apparently there are two different registration pages depending on what path you take. I can only assume that I am getting half-blind and didn't see the register link at the end and went to the "HELP" page. There they have a "Getting Started" heading followed immediately by a "Registering" pulldown with one of the selections being "the Registration Screen". That's not a good way to go because that link goes to a registration page that looks quite legitimate but is not the same as the REAL registration page........ and apparently that one doesn't work. Anyway, I went back this morning and followed the links that most normal people would follow, and had no problems. Now I am simply waiting for e-mail acceptance/verification. Thanks for all your efforts to fix MY problem. I think everything is under control now. Doc

This is my biggest problem with AR in general. The fact is that I am at the point where I set my own personal standards pretty high, but I have no desire to force my standards onto anyone else. Also, I don't want to be setting regulations that are so confusing and difficult to judge that every novice hunter (and even many old-timers)begins to fear that they will accidentally shoot an illegal deer. I think we are all aware of the alarming general reduction in hunter numbers nationally over recent years, and I think we have to be a bit careful about over-regulating and scaring and frustrating even more hunters out of our ranks with our regulation-happy attitudes and legislation. I really do believe that we can go overboard on this sort of thing and do permanent irreversible damage to hunting. Doc

I could be mistaken and perhaps I missed something in the NYS regulations, but on areas of New York where rifles are permitted for deer hunting, the only stipulation that I found is that the weapon must be a centerfire rifle. That would mean that would also allow me to use my .22 hornet. In my mind that is an inadequate deer hunting caliber. So did I miss the caliber regulations in the NYS game syllabus or are they really allowing any old centerfire rifle for deer hunting? Somebody want to straighten me out on this? Doc

No it still won't accept the registration. The registration button blinks when you click on it but nothing happens. I'll try again tommorrow. Doc

Wow!!! What a thread. This thing is huge. There are so many issues being spawned here that I can hardly keep up with them. The dog hunting thing ...... I have never hunted anything with a dog, but I really don't have much of a problem with that. I personally don't want the dog doing all the hunting for me, but I have to admit that it is a deeply engrained style of hunting that has roots in tradition as long as any hunting method. Are there abuses in that kind of hunting? .... I suppose that just like any kind of activity there are those that create problems with it. Bait: ........ I always considered myself a good enough hunter that I don't need to resort to that sort of tactic. Again, in places where that is a traditionally accepted hunting tactic ..... have at it. I always thought that a good hunter who adequately understands deer should be able to figure out what the likely current food sources are rather than trying to train the deer to come to a source that they conjure up. But then, that's just me. Any way you look at a lot of these controversial, so-called ethical choices, you are bound to find some area of the country where it is an accepted practice that is time honored and not even questioned. In those areas ...... so be it! I sure don't want to be in the position of trying to tell those folks they are wrong or "unethical". However, I'll probably never be bashful about telling anyone who wants to listen that I am not interested in trying out those activities or tactics due to my own personal ethics. They can do what they want. Doc

Actually I have different kinds of a problems with "high fences". To me, deer are a state public resource, and there should be a law against prohibiting free movement of a public resource, other than for purposes of keeping them out to safeguard property and livlihood. As far as what fair-chase hunting issues that exist inside of fenced areas, to me it is all related to size. If a parcel is large enough for deer to easily and successfully avoid hunters, then I have no real problem with that from a challenge point of view. I have never hunted such a place, because in every case that I'm aware of, you have to pay for hunting access in high-fenced areas. I don't pay to hunt and will not support such operations. Hunting has always been a free activity throughout my lifetime and I won't spend one cent to support changing that. I know that hunting is heading in that direction, but that practice of pay-to-hunt will never be advanced by any contributions from me. So my quarrel with high-fenced areas goes way beyond whether it is fair-chase or not. The issue of fair chase relates more to the size of the area than the fence itself. But I really am opposed to wild game hoarding as more and more high-fence operations turn into commercial hunting preserves and deprive more and more hunters of free access to the sport and slowly change hunting into a sport of the wealthy. Doc

I am looking forward to successful registration, but so far I have been stopped at the "verification" part of the registration. It requests that the letters shown in the picture be typed into the box, but there is no picture shown. Is everything up and functional yet or are you still working out some bugs? They also ask, "What is the best forum software available?:" and I don't really know what to put in there either. The top part of the registration form seems pretty straight forward, but poking the registration button without filling out something in that verification part is not doing anything. HELP!!!!!!! Doc

What a great reply!! Imagine where all the bowhunters and muzzleloaders would be if we all seriously believed that we were obligated to use the most efficient weapon possible. We have a lot of ways that we put challenge into hunting, and occasionally that challenge takes the form of using something other than the "best equipment available". And by golly, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Doc

No, I can't quote exact acreages, but I do know that there are huge ranches that are fenced in all kinds of different ways and for all different kinds of reasons. Actually, there is nothing magical about a fence simply being a fence when it comes to hunting. Back when our farm was initially whole, we had a few hundred acres with the entire perimeter fenced. I know for a fact that that fence never impacted deer behavior one bit. We continued to maintain it, but originally it was put up by one of the previous owners of the farm many decades before we even got there and I'm sure it didn't change deer movement or activity or patterns back then either. So when you condemn a fenced hunting area, you have to be very specific in the description of that fence and it's purpose. There is an awful lot of fenced in areas that really don't have any impact on hunting whatever. In order for me to get very excited about the sportsmanship of hunting wild game in a fenced in area, the whole scenario has to meet some pretty specific criteria. Just the presence of a fence does not bother me at all. Doc

That all depends on whether we are talking about a 15 acre pasture where the critters are laying down next to the feeding trough, snoring, or are we talking about a 10,000 or 40,000 acre chunk of un-developed ground where the animals are just as skittish and wild and free to escape hunting pressure as anywhere else? Not all fenced hunting areas are created equal. Sometimes the fences have more to do with keeping trespassers out than for containing the critters. Then too, I have seen some high fences erected to keep deer out because of agricultural operations. Hunting inside of some of those can be a waste of time. There are definitely fenced hunting areas that amount to hunting semi-domesticated animals. That is not hunting ....... that is simply slaughtering your own meat. Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't represent it as hunting. Personally, I don't want that sort of thing associated with hunting in terms of how it is presented to the public. I don't want anyone to confuse what I do with simple animal slaughter. Again, that is a meat production activity, not to be confused as hunting. Doc

Of course the quote that I was reacting to was : "Baiting is legal here on private land. Everyone does it. If you don't you won't see deer. Lots of guys won't hunt over it, but will admit if they don't bait, they don't see deer". Specifically that sentence about "If you don't you won't see deer". Which all makes it sound like there is something unique about those states that require bait in order to see deer. In spite of the confusing wording, I think I finally got your point about how once baiting is legalized, it forces everyone to bait. Yes, that sounds like one very strong argument against baiting. Doc

Yes, normally when you talk about antlers and measurements, spread is the usual thing you are talking about. I guess I automatically assumed that was what was meant. However, the practicality of such a requirement is only marginally improved (if at all). I think we have all seen the impact that body size can have on estimates of rack size. To me it's just another opportunity to get a ticket for some vague and ambiguous restriction that is impossible to verify prior to shooting. Such a regulation also has the potential of resulting in rotting carcasses of deer left in the woods because of inability to make such crazy estimates accurately. Also, I must state the obvious that an antler is not a straight feature that can be seen in it's entirety. The curves add to the beam length and are features that cannot be seen in one dimension. Frankly, even though it too is easily subject to honest errors, hunters might have a better chance at getting a spread requirement more correct than a beam length rule. I am not a huge fan of antler restrictions in the first place, but making the whole process as complex and inaccurate and easily subject to honest mistakes doesn't exactly improve the concept. Doc

Yep! That's exactly what I was trying to say. Doc

This is the argument I have seen that justifies baiting in Texas. It's a tough thing to try to visualize when you are hunting way off in some other state. I try to understand what it could be that is so unique about these states that the deer would become invisible without the aid of bait. Why is it that we can hunt deer without bait, but there are other places that can't? There may be some unique difference in the species, or the population density, or the habitat that isn't being explained and that is probably why I don't get it. Maybe somebody could explain it all to me. Doc

Ah the old ethical controversy about hunting vs. technology. How far is too far? I fight this battle everytime I pick up my compound. Truly, I am a little bit bothered that years ago, I put down my recurve in favor of that gosh-awful ugly old Bear Whitetail with the cables and pulleys hanging all over it. I still have not completely reconciled that decision. However, even more disconcerting is the way that technology has begun to take over the lion's share of hunting success. And even worse is when I contemplate just where all this is going to lead in the not to distant future. Already we have had the threat of computerized remote controlled hunting. Apparently that was such an insult to our collective set of hunting ethics that it was turned back (for the time being). So, apparently the hunting community does agree that there are some ethical limits to hunting methods, or at least there should be. The problem is that everyone has a different limit on this. Who is right? How do you establish just when technology has gone too far and now poses an ethical problem. I contend that in a lot of areas, we have already gone too far, but that's just one hunter's opinion. This is one area where there will always be disagreement as it goes back to the emotional core of our individual reasons for hunting. And that is different for every hunter. What technology is ethical for hunting use? Ask 100 hunters and you will get 100 different answers. Doc

And my point is that the legal system was not designed to be interpreted and acted on differently depending on whether you can justify it or not. Like I say, anybody can rationalize anything and make their actions feel better (as in the jack-lighting example), but we do have a system of laws that supposedly keeps people from making up their own rules as they go along. I think we can all come up with an example or two where the legal system conflicts with our own personal code of ethics. And yes this does pose a bit of a dilemma. The question is, do we have the right to try to make the law fit our own personal ethics. In my opinion the answer is usually "no". In the opinion of most game wardens, the answer is "no" and in the opinion of the judge that hands down the sentence, the answer will be "no". So perhaps the only resolution in your mind is to that rare dilemma is to take the law into your own hands and then sneak around like some kind of criminal, covering up or denying the deed. Is that ethical behavior? It still leaves you with feelings and reactions of wrong-doing. Probably the best test of whether an illegal act is truly an ethical act of conscience or simply a convenient end-run around the law is whether or not you could follow through and put the issue in the hands of the authorities afterward. Anyone who can break the law for personal ethical reasons and then turn himself in will certainly have satisfied both his own ethics as well as demonstrated his respect for the law (another ethical choice). And by the way, I have seen that done. Doc

I've seen video of a deer beating up some guy. I believe you probably made the right decision. Doc

That shot couldn't have been more perfect! Congratulations on a well-executed hunt. Doc

I think you missed my point. What I was trying to illustrate is that anybody can make any claim about what gun has killed more deer, and there isn't a bit of documentation anywhere to prove the claim one way or the other. So, I can make any outrageous claim that I want in that area, knowing that nobody can ever come up with documentation to prove me wrong. So the whole arument about the "30-30 having killed more deer that any other" as was stated in the original post, means nothing without any proof one way or the other. So if I want to claim that the 12 guage has killed more deer than any other, let's see someone come up with proof that it isn't true.....lol. Doc

How do you get the deer to hold still for that 18" measurenment before you shoot.....lol. I do have a practical problem with beam width regulations, simply because I have a suspicion that there are a lot of hunters that wouldn't know 18" from 12" and there may be more than a few rotting carcasses in the woods because of "ground shrinkage". Also, there is the practical problem of actually seeing a rack, head-on so a judgement can be made. Most of the time I am purposely located perpendicular to trails so that deer are walking sideways and offering a broadside shot. Doesn't always work that way, but that's the set-up that I find gives me the best opportunities at a good shot selection and a vital hit that offers the best chance for quick humane kills. Also in certain types of brushy terrain, shooting lanes can be narrow limiting the time that the buck is in sight. So, in my case, I have to get the buck to turn his head toward me so I can see what the spread looks like. I probably should mention that I also like to shoot unalerted deer (especially with a bow) for obvious reasons. So, it goes without saying that a lot of good legal deer would have to be passed up because there would be no opportunity to safely judge antler spread. Maybe that's how the bucks will get older. Nobody will dare shoot half of them because they don't get a clear view of the spread ..... lol. That sure would work! Another point too is that not all mature deer have wide spreads on their antlers. I have seen plenty of nice bucks that have a whole lot of long tines, and a very high rack, that have grown with a narrow spread. Doc

I'm not sure just how I feel about hunters deciding what laws are to be observed and which ones should not. It seems that that kind of attitude could probably be twisted around to justify almost any violation. Example: A hunter has convinced himself that the herd density is way too high and so justifies grabbing the rifle and a light and thinning the herd a bit at night. I think it is better to simply adopt the attitude that the law may not be totally in accordance with my thinking, but it is the law. If I don't like it, I should be working to change it, not simply ignoring it. Doesn't that sound more reasonable? I know it would sound pretty reasonable to the local game warden and the judge that he might drag me in front of if I decided to pick and choose which laws to obey. Doc

Kind of looks like the trail cam isn't fooling anybody. They sure are hamming it up for the camera. Doc