elkoholic Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 I notice that there is a fairly large number of people who would justify the use of crossbows by young children so that they can hunt before they are able to pull back the required/legal weight to hunt. To this end I must ask, what is wrong with having to wait to actively participate in the hunt? Barring a physical handicap, most children can easily pull back 40 lbs by age 12 or so, and with some strengthing exercises push that up several years. While I recognize that many states allow hunting before age 12, I personally think that is not an unreasonable age to start actively hunting. My children accompanied me on many hunts starting as young as 2, and I am a firm believer in getting your kids into the outdoors at an early age. Why must there always be a shortcut? Start them shooting a bow at an early age if they are ready and set a goal of being able to pull the required draw weight so they can hunt, if they are ready for that. As I have said many times, shooting a crossbow requires none of the skills of shooting a compound, recurve or longbow and although it may be a short range weapon, it is not the same. In a rush to make young adults out of children we use any shortcut we can. I think we should teach our youth the finer aspects of archery and the practice and patience to master the sport. Just my opion of course, and a little of my age showing. It amazes me how our society continues to try to make our youth grow up faster than they should, take any means possible to get the "advantage" or take the "shortcut". Take your kids to the woods, get them involved in archery, for it teaches discipline, and enjoy your time together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
too_pointer Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows You have made many good points and I agree with you pretty much. In Mi. you have to be 12 before you can bowhunt, and like you stated, by then most kids can draw a bow pretty easily. I am one that thinks crossbow hunting is just another form. The hunting cultures differ so much by regions and areas, and by how you were raised to hunting that my ideas on what I think is right or wrong does not always apply. I think that anyway we can get the younger generation involved is great, as long as it is legal. too_pointer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig mack Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows Elk I agree with you on this one. I'm glad Michigan only allows people who can not draw a bow because of a physical disability to use crossbows. I hope it stays that way. I think you can learn alot about patience useing a bow and arrow. I'm not nocking anyone that uses one but it is definitly more of a challenge with a bow. Just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshM Posted March 27, 2005 Report Share Posted March 27, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows Either way bow or crossbow they are enjoying the outdoors. I use a crossbow and i think its just as fun as a regular bow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimT Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows We cannot use a crossbow here, but if I could get my kids in the woods hunting a little sooner with one I would do it in a second. Why not let them get some expierence hunting before they can pull a hunting bow back? I think teaching them the basics of hunting and woodsmanship early the better off they will be when it comes time to hunt on their own. So, I think the sooner they can hunt and gain the experience the better. I do not think this is a shortcut at all. Crossbows have there place. No doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] I notice that there is a fairly large number of people who would justify the use of crossbows by young children so that they can hunt before they are able to pull back the required/legal weight to hunt. To this end I must ask, what is wrong with having to wait to actively participate in the hunt? Barring a physical handicap, most children can easily pull back 40 lbs by age 12 or so, and with some strengthing exercises push that up several years. While I recognize that many states allow hunting before age 12, I personally think that is not an unreasonable age to start actively hunting. My children accompanied me on many hunts starting as young as 2, and I am a firm believer in getting your kids into the outdoors at an early age. Why must there always be a shortcut? Start them shooting a bow at an early age if they are ready and set a goal of being able to pull the required draw weight so they can hunt, if they are ready for that. As I have said many times, shooting a crossbow requires none of the skills of shooting a compound, recurve or longbow and although it may be a short range weapon, it is not the same. In a rush to make young adults out of children we use any shortcut we can. I think we should teach our youth the finer aspects of archery and the practice and patience to master the sport. Just my opion of course, and a little of my age showing. It amazes me how our society continues to try to make our youth grow up faster than they should, take any means possible to get the "advantage" or take the "shortcut". Take your kids to the woods, get them involved in archery, for it teaches discipline, and enjoy your time together. [/ QUOTE ] I ask how this is rushing itno things.....i get tired of people bashing the crossbow, if you dont hunt with one fine, no one is forcing anyone too. Crossbows have been used since what the middle ages?? its just another form of archery. Use what you like as long as its legal. IMO there is should be no age limit on young hunters, its a case by case thing, I had a hunting license at the age of 9 and enjoyed every minute of it, did I need to wait another three years to hunt? I dont think so. I've seen plenty of 12 year old that have no buisness trying to pull back 40pounds(limit here in ohio) but are perfectly capable of putting a kill shot on a deer. besides if under 18 you must have an adult with you, from experiance its much easier to help a buck fever rattled 12 year old settle down and put a clean kill on a deer with a crossbow than it is with a compound. the question asked the valitidy of crossbows, they have proved themselves for several hundred years I'd say they are a very valid tool for harvesting deer. Oh ya I've never hunted with a crossbow, but am proud to say I have helped three kids >13 years old take there first deer with them, and i can tell you that in all three cases I never would have let the shot happen had it been a compound in there hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows Having re-read your post a couple of things jump to mind, You say your kids started hunting with you at the age of 2 about the same age i started following my dad around, when are your kids old enough to hunt?? You speak of kids growing up too fast anymore...I beg to ask the question, how?? i think we have slowed down kids growth to the point that we have way to many 28 year olds out there who still have no resposibility. I remember my grandfather telling me how at the age of 8 what came home from the hunt was what you ate.....didnt get anything? thats okay just dont plan on eating.........that sounds like growing up fast. You say that hunting with a crossbow dosnt require any of the things that hunting with a compound do...that is dead wrong practice practice practice, that is the only thing either tool needs. the only differance between a crossbow and compound is the fact that you must draw and hold one and not the other....thats it. The pathetic thing is that many of the states that bash crossbows for able hunters alow Draw-locs and other tools that make the compound into a over sized crossbow. time at the range shot selection range estimation shot routine (trigger pull, grip tourque) equipment selection woodsmanship, tracking ect. all things that must be done to ensure a good kill. with both weapons. to be honest and to the point i think the reason This fires me up is this is the typical elitist bs that you hear anymore when someone makes an argument about why they are a "better hunter/outdoorsman" than the next person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelNS Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows There is talk that crossbows are going to be allowed for hunting in NS.Don't matter to me weither they are or aren't.I am just worried about the saftey factor of them.I don't think that it is a good weapon to be teaching young hunters to hunt with because of the saftey factor.If that is the reason that they would allow crossbows to be used somewhere,I would be against it.Give them a .243 or other small calibre rifle and a special youth season.Not a good reason to allow crossbows IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted March 28, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] i can tell you that in all three cases I never would have let the shot happen had it been a compound in there hand [/ QUOTE ] That only shows that there is no comparision to shooting a crossbow and a compound/recurve. My intention is not to "bash" crossbows. They have their place, but please do not compare them to shooting a compound/recurve. If legal in your area, I will still disagree with them being used during archery season, but you have a choice and it is up to the individual to decide. As for rushing things, yes, every child is an individual case when they are ready to hunt. I still feel that waiting is not such a bad thing. Also, if said child takes a shot with a crossbow that shouldn't/couldn't be taken with a compound/recurve they may believe it is a good "archery" shot. A child does not have to be a shooter during the hunt to share in the hunt. We can all justify our choices and decisions but when it comes to children a little extra care should be taken. A two year old could "shoot" a gun or crossbow if someone holds it for them, but should they? Where is the limit set? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] There is talk that crossbows are going to be allowed for hunting in NS.Don't matter to me weither they are or aren't.I am just worried about the saftey factor of them.I don't think that it is a good weapon to be teaching young hunters to hunt with because of the saftey factor.If that is the reason that they would allow crossbows to be used somewhere,I would be against it.Give them a .243 or other small calibre rifle and a special youth season.Not a good reason to allow crossbows IMO. [/ QUOTE ] and what "safety" issue is that prob. the same issues you would have with a compound bow I have seen releases go off pre-mature, limbs brake and arrows shatter on compounds that is. Im curious to the distance a 243 bullet will travel and the distance a crossbow bolt will? its just an unfounded argument there are no more safety issues with a crossbow than there are with a gun/compound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] i can tell you that in all three cases I never would have let the shot happen had it been a compound in there hand [/ QUOTE ] That only shows that there is no comparision to shooting a crossbow and a compound/recurve. My intention is not to "bash" crossbows. They have their place, but please do not compare them to shooting a compound/recurve. If legal in your area, I will still disagree with them being used during archery season, but you have a choice and it is up to the individual to decide. As for rushing things, yes, every child is an individual case when they are ready to hunt. I still feel that waiting is not such a bad thing. Also, if said child takes a shot with a crossbow that shouldn't/couldn't be taken with a compound/recurve they may believe it is a good "archery" shot. A child does not have to be a shooter during the hunt to share in the hunt. We can all justify our choices and decisions but when it comes to children a little extra care should be taken. A two year old could "shoot" a gun or crossbow if someone holds it for them, but should they? Where is the limit set? [/ QUOTE ] Commen sense sets the limit, im shure we all have that, The law sets the limit there as well. I will compair them because they are very much alike, A good crossbow shot and a good compound shot are EXACTLY the same. The three kids i mentioned couldnt ever be expected to hold back a compound waiting for a good shot. Maybe we should do as alabama does and make crossbows illegal unless you have a disabiltiy but make Draw-loks legal for everyone. Then the kids could feel good about being "REAL" archery shots I would love to hear one place where a good crossbow shot isnt a good compound shot. [ QUOTE ] They have their place, but please do not compare them to shooting a compound/recurve [/ QUOTE ] If this is the case then dont compair shooting a compound to shooting a long bow because they have about as much in commen as compounds/crossbows have. Especially with todays sites,stablizers, rests, releases, and let-offs. At 80% a grown man can hold a arrow back for an easy two minutes..no differance than a crossbow being held back. Actually from a pure historical sense longbows and crossbows have more in commen than any compound ever will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimT Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] If this is the case then dont compair shooting a compound to shooting a long bow because they have about as much in commen as compounds/crossbows have. Especially with todays sites,stablizers, rests, releases, and let-offs. At 80% a grown man can hold a arrow back for an easy two minutes..no differance than a crossbow being held back. Actually from a pure historical sense longbows and crossbows have more in commen than any compound ever will. [/ QUOTE ] This is very true. I have never shot a crossbow, but would love to some time. If Maine ever let us hunt with one, I would buy one in a minute. A crossbow only one advantage over a regular bow. Your not holding a draw. One could make the argument that they are more of an ethical hunting tool because of this, but I am not going there....lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelNS Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ and what "safety" issue is that prob. the same issues you would have with a compound bow I have seen releases go off pre-mature, limbs brake and arrows shatter on compounds that is. Im curious to the distance a 243 bullet will travel and the distance a crossbow bolt will? its just an unfounded argument there are no more safety issues with a crossbow than there are with a gun/compound. [/ QUOTE ] carbonhunter,I don't believe I was arguing with anyone about this subject.you seem to be the one arguing with anyone that posts on this subject.I don't know a thing about crossbows so I'll watch where I post from now on and be careful with my opinions.I used to think that most all opinions we allowed in this fourm.But I've seen them picked apart and jumped all over all too often here on this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] for it teaches discipline, and enjoy your time together. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, but so does using a crossbow. Sounds like your beef is with crossbows in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michiganbowhunter_SQ2 Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows i have no problem with crossbows...my uncle has a messed up hand because he was shot when he was a cop in california a while back and he is big into hunting and guns and stuff, but he always seemed kind of left out when it came to all of us bowhunting. but just recently he went out and bought a crossbow that has a 185pound draw weight and shoots about 322fps and now he can come out and shoot with us and join us on our bowhunting trips...i think if they are legal for anyone to use in your state, then fine...let them use them....if you don't want your kids using them at a young age to get started on hunting early then don't....how is getting them started hunting at a young age wrong? is it wrong to teach your kids how to respect the outdoors? is it wrong to teach your kids to respect the game the are hunting? is it wrong to teach your kids about the ethics of hunting? is it wrong to teach your kids some sort of responsiblity so that they won't grow up and by the time they are 12 or 13 they are into drugs and smoking or stealing? taking them into the woods is one thing but letting them have the actually experience is a whole other story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] [ and what "safety" issue is that prob. the same issues you would have with a compound bow I have seen releases go off pre-mature, limbs brake and arrows shatter on compounds that is. Im curious to the distance a 243 bullet will travel and the distance a crossbow bolt will? its just an unfounded argument there are no more safety issues with a crossbow than there are with a gun/compound. [/ QUOTE ] carbonhunter,I don't believe I was arguing with anyone about this subject.you seem to be the one arguing with anyone that posts on this subject.I don't know a thing about crossbows so I'll watch where I post from now on and be careful with my opinions.I used to think that most all opinions we allowed in this fourm.But I've seen them picked apart and jumped all over all too often here on this site. [/ QUOTE ] there is no jumping on anyone, you give comments with nothing to back them other than in the name of Safety, that will be jumped on in any part of this forum, especially if your wrong. When you stat talking abput the valitidy of something fact outweight opinion. SO you are weighing in on a post where you have NO experiance but useing hear say to base your opinions........yes please be more careful [ QUOTE ] carbonhunter,I don't believe I was arguing with anyone about this subject.you seem to be the one arguing with anyone that posts on this subject. [/ QUOTE ] Yup I will argue with anyone who starts preaching about how a certain legal hunting tool, teaches/fosters unethical hunters. The number of wounded and not found deer we read about in this forum alone every year makes you wonder if more states shouldnt adapt more liberal crossbow laws. Instead people read threads like this and think they will be better than the crossbow hunters and hunt with a longbow, and end up shooting at and wounding 5 deer a year and blame it on everything under the sun. Id guess the starter of this thread has little if any experiance with crossbows himself. You wont find me weighing in on a post for or against a product without trying it out, that would be pushing false information something that isnt needed in a forum ment to help not hinder hunters. You still havnt awnsered my question on safety issues, please dont come into a forum and make your bed and not be prepaired to sleep in it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] hey carbonhunter, i agree with you totally! i hunt in hamilton county and have used a crosbow, compound, muzzleloader, and shotgun. i have taken 4 bucks in previous years with my crossbow and then lost my land so the last four years i did not get to hunt. last year i stumbled onto a new spot mid season and took a nice buck with my crossbow. this year i started hunting with a compound and i practiced all the time. when the time came i still didnt feel ready and harvested a young buck with my crossbow. i felt that was fair to the animal to make the shot with what i felt most comfortable with and it paid off. some could also argue no firearms for hunting but we can use them, so please dont bash crossbows. whatever method you use go for it, we all have a love for hunting, dont bash someone for participating in the same sport we all love! [/ QUOTE ] That right there is the point I've been trying to make all along......there are some people out there who just cant shoot a longbow.(not saying your one of them).and there are the ethical ones who realise this and dont try and shoot a deer with it, they instead pick up a crossbow and make a good ethical kill with a stick and string device. That is what being a ethical hunter is all about. bravo and congrats on your bucks IGOTBLUEBUCKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelNS Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows You still havnt awnsered my question on safety issues, please dont come into a forum and make your bed and not be prepaired to sleep in it too. I've slept in many beds CH and have no problem doing so.Like I said I don't have any experience with crossbows and saftey seemed to be the only thing that came to my mind.Maybe you could enlighten me a bit about crossbows old wise one,JK.LOL.When is a crossbow loaded/cocked/drawn??Are they loaded when you enter the woods or only when ready to shoot at the entended target??What type of saftey is on them?What is the trigger mechanism? Just because someone doesn't have alot of knowledge on a subject shouldn't mean that they can't comment on it.Heck thats how alot of people learn about things they have no knowledge on.So if you will enlighten me a bit about crossbows to give me a better understanding of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] You still havnt awnsered my question on safety issues, please dont come into a forum and make your bed and not be prepaired to sleep in it too. I've slept in many beds CH and have no problem doing so.Like I said I don't have any experience with crossbows and saftey seemed to be the only thing that came to my mind.Maybe you could enlighten me a bit about crossbows old wise one,JK.LOL.When is a crossbow loaded/cocked/drawn??Are they loaded when you enter the woods or only when ready to shoot at the entended target??What type of saftey is on them?What is the trigger mechanism? Just because someone doesn't have alot of knowledge on a subject shouldn't mean that they can't comment on it.Heck thats how alot of people learn about things they have no knowledge on.So if you will enlighten me a bit about crossbows to give me a better understanding of them. [/ QUOTE ] Crossbows have trigger safeties just like any other fire arm, A crossbow should be treated as loaded as soon as the string is pulled back and locked inot place, that said whenever I have taken a youth out with a crossbow we have pulled the string back, but not nocked a bolt untill game has presented itself. I also carry a bolt with a field point for unloading at the end of the hunt. I wouldnt recommend setting the string untill you have climbed into a tree stand/blind...JMO I know several guys who stalk hunt into there stands and then un-knock the bolt before climbing up the tree. There is no moire of a safty issue with a crossbow than there is with a compound, one must still check there equipment to be shure there isnt any possible malfunctions. I dont own or use a crossbow, only assist several youth hunters who do. I have shot one alot though, and many of my friends hunt with one, they have there shortcomings just as anyother piece of archery equipment and are perfect for the person who dosnt have the time, money, or space to be profficent with the long bow. They still require alot of practice, but once you have it zeroed in a few dozen bolts before the season and you should be shooting right on again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelNS Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows Another question...If a young hunter can't pull up to 40.lbs,which I'm sure most can by age 12 if not 10,how does a young hunter pull back or arm a 150.lbs crossbow???Also are these young hunters able to hunt on their own or under supervision of adult or someone who is legally able to hunt on their own?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
too_pointer Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows I have my own info on some questions since I have used a crossbow for 4 years now. First, as far as safety, the ones I have shot and own all have a mechanical safety, much the same as a gun. You can either use a rope or a crank to pull the string back. Both are fairly easy, the crank is the easiest. The crank type is mounted in the buttstock, and just about anyone can use it well. On my TenPoint crossbow, you cannot bring the string back to where it will fire without it being on safety. If you do when the safety is on the fire mode, it will not fire !! I think that crossbows have great safety features built in them. too_pointer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tominator Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] Another question...If a young hunter can't pull up to 40.lbs,which I'm sure most can by age 12 if not 10,how does a young hunter pull back or arm a 150.lbs crossbow???Also are these young hunters able to hunt on their own or under supervision of adult or someone who is legally able to hunt on their own?? [/ QUOTE ] In Ohio, I believe the legal age to hunt alone is 16 or 17. [ QUOTE ] why did i get the little **** on my last post and it said was p u l l...nothing bad [/ QUOTE ] The editor reads c*o*c*k as a bad word bud, don't worry about it, we knew what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camelNS Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows [ QUOTE ] they make cranks for crossbows and also have a string pulley device that can assist in cocking, if a child is with an adult the adult could **** the bow as well...why are you still lookin for cons of crossbows? [/ QUOTE ] Ain't looking for cons ugotbluebucks.just asking some ?????'s.Nothing wrong with that is there?Like I said I am in no way against crossbows being used.I was wondering about the saftey factor of them.I have heard that they are not the saftest weapon but I take it they are quite safe.Thanks to those who clarified that for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbonhunter Posted March 28, 2005 Report Share Posted March 28, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows The kids I speak of all are under the age of being able to hunt alone all have lost there fathers due to car accidents,cancer and suicide to be exact. All meathods listed are viable means for pulling back the string. In these cases though I just did the dirty work for them. Pulling a bow back from an upright position is much differant than putting your foot in a bracket and you chest against a stock and pulling up with both hands though. The eldest kid i hunted with 14, could pull the string up, and shoots a compound every now and then, but cant hold the bow back for more than 1o seconds and starts shaking shaking pretty bad after about 4 seconds....not nearly long enough to draw,let a shot open, and fire on a deer with a compound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkoholic Posted March 29, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2005 Re: validity of crossbows Sorry to get you so fired up. My children have long sinse passed the legal hunting age. My daughter took her first deer (with a rifle) the first year she could carry a weapon, that being age twelve. She has been shooting a bow sinse age 8 or 9 and she will turn 25 this year and still enjoys a hunting excursion with her dad. My son is in the same situation both with rifle and archery, and like his sister enjoys an outing with the old man. If in this day and age you can not see the push to make the children grow up way too fast, I am amazed. This has nothing to do with responsibility, or maybe it does, for as children are doing things at a younger age the consequences and responsibilties are beyond them. If you think that physically drawing and holding a bow at full draw, while maintaining proper form, is a minor difference between crossbows and compound/recurves, well, I am again amazed. I also think that the draw-loc devise, unless used by the handicapped, is a cheap shortcut. Not everyone is capable of doing everything they want, nor should they through the marvels of technology. We would all be Bill Gates or Barry Bonds or whomever your imagination can conjure up. While I can relate to the practice issue, I can guarantee you that shooting a crossbow accurately will require a lot less practice than shooting a compound/recurve. I hope you do not think I am an "elitist" for it takes me many hours of practice to reach the level that I feel is required to hunt with archery equipment, and more than 40 years of hunting experience to make me a "passable" hunter. Yes, like Tominator suspects, I am against crossbows (the Draw-loc also), but, only during archery season. Handicapped hunters aside, I feel if you want to hunt the archery season, put in the time and if you need some instructions to help you along with shooting your compound/recurve, there are many qualified instructors out there. Do not get upset about the issue, for we do not have to agree. All we really need to do is pass on our hunting heritage. Good hunting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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