Decision Theology

[markyj987]

I was wondering how many of you accept decision theology, which advocates that man is saved and born-again when he makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ?

This is something I never really thought about until I started studying differences between church doctrines. While reading the Gospel of John, I came across two verses that spoke to my heart—especially the first one below.

John 6:65

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 15:16

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

Please keep in mind that I do not reject the concept of being born again, but rather that it is by anything we do on our own. Nor do I think rejection of decision theology diminishes the importance of bearing witness to Christ, for the Holy Spirit works through the Word.

I did a few searches on the ‘net to find Scripture that supports decision theology, but could not really find anything. (Granted, I didn’t look but for 2-3 minutes.) I thought it might be a good discussion to throw out there.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Decision Theology

I really agree here Mark that if you believe and accept Jesus as your saviour, then you will be saved. Personally don't think that you have to go through a church building and a big ordeal with a baptism for your mind and heart to be right with God.

Guess to me the idea of he whosoever believeth in me means just that.

[johnf]

Re: Decision Theology

Your talking about "Predestination" which in it's truest form is a Calvinist dotorine. Predestintation states that man has no control over his salvation that it is all controlled by the will of God. God chose those who would be saved and all others will be lost eternally.

My personal problem with this theoloy is this.

Why would the word of God say that Christ died for all man's sin if He only died for some?

Why would Christ's last statement to man be that he (man) needed to tell everyone about Christ? If we were predestined and had no choice. we wouldn't need to hear the Gospel.

Many places in the bible it talks about believeing in Christ or having faith and being "Saved". Most prodistant pastors that I've talked to will freely admit that the moment you "believe" that you are saved. It doesn't have anything to do with walking an isle, saying a prayer, or getting sprinkled/dunked or memoriziing a bunch of text. Having faith or believing is a tiny, tiny act. But it is the one thing that we do that leads to Crist covering our sins.

I am more of the Luterine view on the subject. God knows everything. He knows who will get saved and who won't. He knows every opportunity and every decision I will ever make.

But they are still my decisions to make.

[buckee]

Re: Decision Theology

The Bible is filled with examples of decisions, that both man has made, and decisions that God has made, since the beginning of time as we know it.

A person could take those two verses, by themselves and make a whole new religion, based on predestination salvation theology. Like John said above, it's already been done.

God chose to make us in the first place, for himself. He also chose to make us with a free-will, like himself. The first thing man did was use his free will to disobey God, and all of God's perfect creation fell and suffered because of it to this very day.

Because of Adam's choice to disobey, God wanted to destroy the earth, but changed his mind, because of one man and his family's loyalty to him. That was Noah and his family. Noah didn't chose to save mankind, God did, but at the same time, Noah could have refused to do what God asked him to do.

God instead chose to save mankind, through Noah, by saving first him and his family, and later giving man his laws to live by, through Moses. God chose Moses, way before Moses came to a point in his life to head God's voice. God had to first prepare his heart through life's experience. Moses still could have said no, when God finally asked him to be his instrument.

God chose to send his Son Jesus to die for us, in our place, so that we could be saved. He made this choice before we were born. We had no say in it. So yes, God did chose us, because we certainly didn't chose the plan for our own salvation, God did.

Throughout the Bible we hear, consider this, meditate on this or that, Listen up. Those actions require choices on our part, but it is because God choose to save us through his truth in the first place, that we are able to make those choices.

No man could ever come to God, or choose him, without God first preparing his heart, with his truth. And no man would even know the truth, unless God choose to give us the truth in the first place.

That is what I believe is mean't by John 6:65.

The fact that God chose to save mankind through his laws first, and then second, through his Son's sacrifice to save us of the penalty of death for disobeying his laws, was God's choice, not ours. We would have destroyed ourselves long ago, if it wasn't for God, choosing to save us first, before we were even born.

Jesus said, "I stand at the door and knock. If any man hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him, and he with me"

A lot of men and women hear his voice and the knocking, but refuse to open the door. (choice)

Another example of God choosing first to stand at the door of our hearts, waiting for a response. We didn't choose for him to be there. And also an example of us having to choose to respond, or not. To respond, requires a choice on our part, not God's. But it does require a choice, based on God preparing our hearts before hand, through his revealed truth of what sin is in our lives. .

The predestined salvation theology, is a dangerous one IMO. It basically makes the Bible useless, God's laws of no effect, and Jesus death for nothing. And like John said above, their would be no need of need the Gospel. No need to preach, and nothing really of any importance to ponder.

[markyj987]

Re: Decision Theology

[ QUOTE ]

Your talking about "Predestination" which in it's truest form is a Calvinist dotorine. Predestintation states that man has no control over his salvation that it is all controlled by the will of God. God chose those who would be saved and all others will be lost eternally.

[/ QUOTE ]

John, I feel compelled to reply to this--as I am not a Calvinist. As you know, my beliefs are in line with the teachings of confessional Lutheranism.

The point on which I agree with Calvin is in the "T" of TULIP. That is, as I'm sure you know, is total depravity and that we are born dead in sin and can do nothing about it on our own. That teaching was the basis for my post. Being in that condition, we cannot choose to be saved--only to reject the working of the Holy Spirit. To accept that belief is to reject decision theology which says we can choose to accept or reject.

The U--Unconditional election is something I reject. I do believe in predestination, but not what Calvin teaches, which would be better described as "double predestination." As you said, predestination in the Lutheran sense where God knows who will and will not be saved, but that God Himself does not predestine anyone to ****. Therefore our choice to reject Him is what will send us there.

Though Calvin's teaching may be logical, it does not have basis in Scripture and applying human reason to that which we are incapable of completely understanding is dangerous.

I disagree with the rest--LIP--Limited atonement, Irresistable grace, and Perseverance of saints.

Limited atonement: Christ died for the sins of all, believers and unbelievers alike--Calvin taught he only died for believers.

Irresistable grace: We can indeed reject the Holy Spirit, which is also in disagreement with Calvinism

Perseverence of saints: Jesus says in John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand." This statement in and of itself supports this doctrine. I am not exaggerating that I have heard two different Calvinist preachers on radio broadcasts emphatically give this as evidence of eternal security. However, in John 15:6, Jesus says, "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." Luke 8:13 says "Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in time of testing fall away." This is another example where I think Calvinism doesn't really hold water in a Scriptural sense.

[ QUOTE ]

God chose to send his Son Jesus to die for us, in our place, so that we could be saved. He made this choice before we were born. We had no say in it. So yes, God did choose us, because we certainly didn't chose the plan for our own salvation, God did.

Throughout the Bible we hear, consider this, meditate on this or that, Listen up. Those actions require choices on our part, but it is because God choose to save us through his truth in the first place, that we are able to make those choices.

No man could ever come to God, or choose him, without God first preparing his heart, with his truth. And no man would even know the truth, unless God choose to give us the truth in the first place.

That is what I believe is mean't by John 6:65.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve, that's closer to the point I was trying to make though I don't think we are in agreement 100%. I think I take it one step further in that when we hear, consider, meditate, we are doing those actions because of the Holy Spirit working in us. Therefore, I would say it is God's will, not ours. I believe that we have free will to reject God--but to accept Him is not our doing.

With all the differing views on doctrine, it sure is a blessing that we are saved by grace through faith alone.

[buckee]

Re: Decision Theology

It almost sounds like you are caught up in the Term "God's will" and it's meaning in different passages. God's will does not just mean "God's decree" as interpreted by the Calvinist thinking crowd.

God's will ...what does it mean. I think we have a tendency to look upon the whole term as being an omnipotent decree and nothing else. It is God who is omnipotent and Perfect.

"Will" can mean several things. The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action, predetermination, Diligent purposefulness, Self-control, self-discipline, A desire, purpose, or determination, Deliberate intention or wish, Free discretion; inclination or pleasure, or Bearing or attitude toward others, disposition.

When we see all the meanings for the word "will" and place "Perfect" in front of it, to represent God, we get a much better picture of what "God's will" really means in many different passages.

God's will can mean his decree on one hand, but can also mean His perfect Plan, perfect Wish, perfect Desire or perfect Pleasure on the other. The only thing absolute about God's will, is that it is the will of perfection, however it is interpreted.

If we interpret it to mean absolute decree and nothing else, Every time we hear "God's will" we are making a grave mistake, and are missing out on seeing God's Perfect love, his Perfect hope for all mankind and his perfect free will which he created in each of us (only our free will is far from perfect..LOL).

God's will, or hope and desire is that we will come to him, because he has already showed himself to us, in so many different ways. His perfect plan (or will) for our redemption is complete, through Jesus Christ our Lord, but man's individual redemption still rests on whether he decides to say "Yes Lord, come in" or "No Lord, not right now", or "I think I'll try it my way, thanks".

We do ultimately choose Christ at one time or another, or reject him. If we have the capacity and the freedom to reject him, then we have the same capacity to accept him. His will(perfect hope,plan and pleasure), is that we do accept him, and hold on to him, until that day.

[ QUOTE ]

I think I take it one step further in that when we hear, consider, meditate, we are doing those actions because of the Holy Spirit working in us. Therefore, I would say it is God's will, not ours. I believe that we have free will to reject God--but to accept Him is not our doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I would say it is the Holy Spirit working in us and through us too, but the Holy Spirit does not "Make us" do anything. He helps us and guides us to make the right choices and decisions. He doesn't cause us to pray, but instead reminds us, and prompts us. The Holy Spirit does not control us like little robots, but is aids us by way of truth, if we are listening, to make those important decisions in our lives.

God knows, that I have prayed and meditated on many things, and didn't heed the help God's Holy spirit offered. I may have been praying, and that certainly was God's will(desire) for me to do, and the Holy Spirit was indeed there to give me answers and help me, but my decisions after prayer, were my own at times, and not always what God wanted me to do. In other words, my decisions sometimes after prayer and meditation, were not God's will, but my own, because I failed to listen and did it my way instead.

[johnf]

Re: Decision Theology

Personally I have a problem with the "T" too. If man was totally depraved then he would not have the ability to have the faith that it takes to come to Christ. Man does have a sin nature and through this he is condemend to eternal flames unless he gives up his will to that of God.

If we didn't have the ability to give ourselves over then I could agree with the "T".

[Ravin R10 man]

Re: Decision Theology

John 3;3

John 3; 5-7

Romans 5;9

Mark 16;16

Romans 6;4

Math.3;13-17

Marky I hope this helps you figure things out.

Yes I do beleive in being saved by the blood of Christ, by grace when he died on the cross. I also beleive the Bible says we MUST be baptized by immersion to signify death and burial to the old life , and by doing so we demonstrate our desire to live as Christ has commanded.

[markyj987]

Re: Decision Theology

Perhaps I could've stated it better when I said, "Therefore, I would say it is God's will, not ours." I think I was just trying to finish the post and didnt want to keep rembling...

Total depravity, as I touched on before--and perhaps should have just flat out said, points to original sin. I know some reject the concept that in our nature we are sinful and are guilty before God, but I will let Scripture speak here--

Genesis 8:21 NIV

The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

Psalm 51:5 NIV

Surely I was sinful at birth,

sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Romans 8:5-9

5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Returning to decision theology, our choices...the ones we feel we make to accept Christ are not our own. Back to Scripture some more...

1 Corinthians 1:30

30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

1 Corinthians 2:14

14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Oneida man, I respectfully disagree that only baptism by immersion is the proper way. The Greek word, baptizo, literally means wash, not fully immerse. Though baptim by immersion may be a more beautiful symbolic picture, any Baptism using water and done in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is valid and is not merely an act of obedience--it works for forgiveness of sin. Baptism does not work for forgiveness of sins or work to create faith by its method--but by the Word of God. It is not our act of being baptized--it is God's promise--his gift to us. It is not us calling up to him claiming to be his child, but him calling to us to claim us as his child:

Acts 22:16

And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.'

Romans 6:2-7

2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Further, I do not belive that babies or children are incapable of saving faith--or incapable of receiving forgiveness for sins. They should not be denied the gift of baptism:

Matthew 28:19

19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:38-39

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Acts 16:31-33

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

Mark 10:13-16

13People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

Again, I want to emphasize that I merely was trying to see how others understand the method by which we come to faith. That is certainly the most important thing that we all share---we are saved through grace by faith alone. I do not believe that this faith, as I've been saying is something that is created by anything that we do--but is an act of God that we come to faith.

Indeed, we play no part in our salvation for Jesus atoning work on the cross--his blood was shed for all of us. How we come to that realization and how it is manifested is where we may differ.

My head hurts now..

[wtnhunt]

Re: Decision Theology

So from what I gather here from what Martin is saying is that anyone who is not born again and baptized by immersion will be condemned.

Where does this leave the young and mentally incompetent? Are they all to be condemned. I had this question before in another post and I just don't agree with that idea.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Don't know any other way to say it, but what I get out of this is that no matter who you are what you have done, you accept and believe and God will grant you everlasting life. His love was/is unconditional.

On baptism, I really do have a few questions. In my thoughts I kind of think it is more of a cleansing of the soul for those who have true faith. If you are baptized, then you sin over time the sin builds up, maybe you forget some of your sins and do not ask specifically for forgiveness for each and every sin you commit, do you then need to be baptized periodically to keep you covered?

What about someone who has a sudden awakening and comes to faith and realizes that they have not been living their life right, and comes to God and ask forgiveness and accepts Christ on their death bed just prior to passing without having an opportunity to be baptized and publicly saved in front of a group of people. This type of thing really happens, is it for us to believe that these people are just sol and were too late in coming to faith that God will not have mercy on them?

Have certainly heard all sort of interesting interpretations and different perspectives in my short lifetime. Some ideas such as some of those held by Jehovas witnesses and their ideas about the meek seem pretty far out there in my opinion. Who is right or wrong, I really dont know the answer, what I do know is that Jesus died for us all to have the opportunity to make the choice to put our trust in him. God has given us the opportunity to turn to him and have faith.

[Ravin R10 man]

Re: Decision Theology

Marky, I dissagree on your veiw of Baptism..Christ was fully immersed in the Jordan, not sprinkled, he set the standard, we should follow it. Baptism in no way saves you from anything, rather it is purely symbolic. I beleive it's necessary, as an outward expression of your acceptance of Christ in your life.

quote[so from what I gather here from what Martin is saying is that anyone who is not born again and baptized by immersion will be condemned. ]qoute

William, I never implied that at all, it was Christ that set the standard of how to be baptised,(Matth. 3; 13-17), and if we are truly a follower of Christ, then we should do as he did.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Decision Theology

I understand what you are getting at Martin, and agree that it is symbolism of cleansing of the soul or washing away your sins. I still have to wonder though about what I asked before, are those who get baptized once or maybe more, but not after each time they may stray away from God good until their time of death?

Or does a person need to get saved every time they wander a little and repeat the baptismal process and be born again each and every time? I am asking this not to try to argue, but because I honestly do not know the answer.

[johnf]

Re: Decision Theology

Q: When did Jesus die?

A: 2000+ years ago.

Q: Which of your sins did his death cover?

A: All of them.

Q: Which of those sins did he know you were going to commit?

A: All of them.

Q: Which of your sins were future sins when Christ gave his life for them?

A: All of them.

Q: If you do not accept Him how many times do you go to the eternal flames?

A: Once

Q: How many times do you have to accept him as your savior?

A: Once

The moment you believe, even before you say a prayer or walk an isle, your name goes into the lambs book of life and every sin you have ever or will ever commit is forgiven.

There are many things that God wants us to do. He wants us to (in no certain order) publicly profess our faith, get babtised, preach His word, repent, learn His word, gather in His name, and many others. These are the will of God, but not a mandate which affects our salvation.

If our salvation were dependant on our worthiness, no one would ever be good enough.

[buckee]

Re: Decision Theology

Well put John. When we look back through the old testament, before our saviour was even crucified for the sins of mankind, the one thing that saved men, was just the fact that they had a relationship with God. These men all sinned, but it was their relationship with God that made them have favour with God. Their works were like filthy rags, but their relationship mean't everything. They weren't perfect, they screwed up lots, but when they did, they cried out to their Lord God in heaven because they believed in him and believed that "his" righteousness and judgements were fair and true.

Sin has separated mankind so far from God through history, that God's saving grace through relationship became even more evident in Jesus Christ. We can't even approach God, accept through Jesus Christ. He paid the price for us all, and all we have to do is believe and continue in a relationship with him. God created us for himself, and all he ever wanted from us, is to be close to him, just like any Father and son relationship. Sin separated us from having that right relationship with God and it had to be dealt with. God did that for us in Jesus. What a gift.

I don't think it makes too much difference whether your immersed in a river, immersed in a tub up on a balcony in church, have a glass of water poured over you or sprinkled, it's an outward sign, that God wants us to perform, that represents an inward rebirth. Baptism doesn't save anyone, it's more like the handshake in a deal, so witnesses can see an agreement has been made.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Decision Theology

[ QUOTE ]

Baptism doesn't save anyone, it's more like the handshake in a deal, so witnesses can see an agreement has been made.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of how I have always thought too Steve, but then is that not similar in some ways to being saved in front of witnessess and accepting Christ openly?

What about the early baptisms of children before they may really fully understand what it really means to be saved?

Admittedly I was baptized when I was younger, but honestly was not saved then, as I did not honestly know then at that age what it really meant to be saved and have trust in Christ and have faith in God.

[Ravin R10 man]

Re: Decision Theology

[qouteWhat about the early baptisms of children before they may really fully understand what it really means to be saved? ]qoute

The Bible never says one word of children being baptized, so this tells me you do it when you become aware of what it means and signifies..I have no problem with a child dedication, which the parents agree to raise the child in a Christian enviroment/teaching....again, Jesus was sinless and even he said he needed to be baptized to complete his relationship to the father. When he was,,he was fully immersed, not sprinkled, sorry.

[wtnhunt]

Re: Decision Theology

So then Martin by this I would understand your view to be that a child who was baptized even though it still was symbolic, should be baptized once again when they are saved and are better able to grasp the meaning of what it is to be saved?

Guess if that is the case, I still have to kind of wonder if this idea would mean that those who drift away from God for whatever reason later to renew their faith whether it be through an awakening or whatever should then also be baptized once again?

[johnf]

Re: Decision Theology

Baptism is the outward obidiance. When a baby is baptised it is their parents act not the babys. Believers baptism after accepting Chist is only needed one time. Otherwise you are saying that Christ blood really didn't all of your sins.

This would limit the power of God.

[unioncountyslayer]

Re: Decision Theology

I'll chime in as simple as possible. I believe in once saved, always saved. However I do believe that someone can think that they are saved, but if their head knowledge never reaches their heart, maybe they were never truely saved in the first place. (I say this in response to your question about straying from God). If someone says that they are a Christian or have been saved, but show no fruit to show this transformation, then maybe they were not truely saved in the first place. Someone that has truely given their life to Christ and asked the Holy Spirit into their heart will bear fruit of their conversion. And as far as baptism, I agree with what most have said, it is an outward expression of your faith, plain and simple. It is not required of your salvation, but if someone chooses to do it as an act of faith and to profess their decision to follow Christ, I believe they should do it as the bible teaches it, full emersion.

[Ravin R10 man]

Re: Decision Theology

[ QUOTE ]

So then Martin by this I would understand your view to be that a child who was baptized even though it still was symbolic, should be baptized once again when they are saved and are better able to grasp the meaning of what it is to be saved?

reply to that quest.

Yes William, if a child should come to know the Lord later growing up, then yes, they should by way of testimony be baptized to show their conviction symbolicly.

next quest.

Guess if that is the case, I still have to kind of wonder if this idea would mean that those who drift away from God for whatever reason later to renew their faith whether it be through an awakening or whatever should then also be baptized once again?

[/ QUOTE ]

my reply to that one..

at this point if they rededicate themselves..and they feel the need to do so it surely wont hurt, but probably not needed if they did it the first time.