Doc Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 There is a great controversy taking place on the editorial pages of the Canandaigua Daily Messenger. A week or two ago, there was a picture on the front page of a bloodied, badly wounded coyote laying down panting against a block wall of some builing in a plaza in Macedon. It was a pretty pathetic scene that was sure to tug at the heartstrings of any animal lover. Apparently some hunters with dogs had shot the coyote and were in the process of tracking him down when he ran into the plaza and became a spectacle of controversy for every anti-hunting member in the area to write about in the letters to the editor page of the local paper. We're taking quite a beating and the issue doesn't seem to be fading away. That picture created some very bad press for all the local hunters and the animal rights people are really making hay out of the unfortunate episode. Anyway, in the course of these very public discussions, several of these letters have come up with this amazing piece of research done by two wildlife biologists (Robert Crabtree and Marc Bekoff) that claims that killing coyotes creates more coyotes because as the populations get thinned, the coyote litters get larger. Unfortunately, the argument, true or false, goes a long way toward refuting our claims that hunters are the only reliable source of controlling the coyote population. Of course they are all glomming onto this study and re-printing these results until it begins sounding like a proven fact to any non-hunter who happens to read it. I have yet to get onto the internet and look up this study, but I have also not been able to find anything that really refutes it. So it appears that they have the documentation on their side with absolutely no way for anyone to refute it, other than by applying some simple logic. So my question is, have any of you ever heard of these researchers and their study? Have you ever seen anything that refutes this notion? I would like to send in a rebuttal since nobody else is, but it sure would be nice if I could find some expert research to back up my position. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy Think there is some confusion there Doc. I read somewhere that coyotes when you take out the dominant female, will have more litters, because that female keeps the other females in the pack from being bred through her dominance. That is near to what is said there, but not exactly the same, and dont think I ever heard the person who put that information out to claim it as a fact either. The non hunters are the ones we do most need to be concerned with, they need educated to the truths if at all possible. Someone needs to get their information straight on this issue there, and make sure it is known that it is a study, not proven as fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnatecsteve Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy I wish I could help, but I don't know alot about coyotes. It just goes to show how we as sportsmen have to be very careful of our actions to avoid being scrutenized by those who are misinformed about how we are a management tool and are a benifit to the game we pursue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckee Posted March 24, 2007 Report Share Posted March 24, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/animals/mammal/cala/all.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaCoyote Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy [ QUOTE ] claims that killing coyotes creates more coyotes because as the populations get thinned, the coyote litters get larger. [/ QUOTE ] Thats the best thing I've read in a long time!!! Shoot more yotes to get more yotes next year. I like it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nutz4bucks Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy One time me and my old man were on our way to the Twin Cites and soon after leaving home we spotted a red fox and we shot him very bad shot took out both his eyes went up and picked him up and thought he was dead so put him in the truck and proceeded with the trip to the cites..... Well we were in truck utlitites(truck supply store) and a lady came in screamin' sayin their was a critter out in the parking lot bloody and doing circles.... Me and my dad looked at each other and thought OH BOY how do we explain this... So we went out thier and put him back in the truck bed and when their wasn't to many people lookin we finished him off (wasn't good but had to be done) The whole situation could have turned out probally worse...glad it didn't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sureshot Posted March 25, 2007 Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy from what I have heard and seen over the past years,a coyote will produce according to amount of coyotes and food availability,I know a guy who snared 200 coyotes for the goverment one year out of a game preserve,its about 75 square miles, the next spring I seen a litter with 9 pups and another with 7 little buggers running around while I was shed hunting, also like said above when packed up it usually as familly pack and the dominant female will not let her hubby breed the youngones, if she is killed there is lots of breeding, I do not agree in the idea that if you kill off there will be more , I do believe that in years of bigger kills there is more pups, what they do not realize is if there was no huntign going on there would be more coyotes for sure,and mother nature will kick in and mange will controal them, untill they have seen a coyote with no hair but fine fuzz in -30 weather with black frozen skin laying in with the cattle to keep warm, that have no idea how cruel mother nature is compared to a bullet finishing them off instantly!sure the odd one is wounded and lost, but even there suffering is nothign compared to freezing to death slowly over a week or so, I have seen it and its not good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy [ QUOTE ] http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/animals/mammal/cala/all.html [/ QUOTE ] The following quote from the web-site referenced seems to come as close as I have seen so far to trying to explain this idea of hunting being a cause for coyote population increases: "The impact of predator control on coyote population densities, behavior, and ecology are not well known. Coyote populations are able to maintain themselves under considerable human-induced mortality. Their means of survival include behavioral adaptations and biological compensatory mechanisms such as increased rates of reproduction, survival, and immigration." ------------------------------------------------------------ However, in spite of all these potential built-in defense mechanisms, it would be fairly logical that none of them would kick in unless the population had been diminished in the first place. So even with all these factors in place, there should be no way that the coyote population in a heavily hunted area could ever exceed that of an area that had no population controls taking place. Did everybody follow that? Am I right or not? Buckee - thanks for the link. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerClay Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy [ QUOTE ] http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/animals/mammal/cala/all.html [/ QUOTE ] Neat link Steve! It would be fun to shoot a coyote grand slam. I don't know anything about what you describe but I believe that predator populations will rise to meet an overpopulation of a prey species. I blame the turkeys for our rise in coyotes. A perfect example is the hill I have been hunting on for over 30 years. Coyotes were there but you were lucky if you saw one a year. Then came the turkeys, and they came in gigantic flocks. Every deer drive 20-40 of them would come running out. Then came the coyotes and they have almost completely decimated our turkey flocks. Now we see a coyote almost everyday during deer season. When the turkeys are gone these high coyote populations will turn to eat whatever game animal they will find and you will see other game populations suffer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texan_Til_I_Die Posted March 26, 2007 Report Share Posted March 26, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy [ QUOTE ] ...several of these letters have come up with this amazing piece of research done by two wildlife biologists (Robert Crabtree and Marc Bekoff) that claims that killing coyotes creates more coyotes... [/ QUOTE ] That will probably get my vote for asinine theory of the month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted March 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy I guess the question is: If one of the hunting clubs in an area held a coyote hunting contest that lasted over several months, and the contestants were fairly successful, and the number of entries was quite high, would you expect the population of coyotes to rise? And assume that this contest is an annual event. Logic tells me.....no. These letters to the editor basically say ....yes. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtnhunt Posted March 27, 2007 Report Share Posted March 27, 2007 Re: Coyote Controversy To answer your question with my opinion Doc, with more hunting of coyotes, specifically at times when females may be pregnant I would see that a decline in the overall numbers would be likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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