I'm losing my mind!

[Guest shtr]

I came back here after a prolonged absents and what do I see?....paper tuning this and paper tuning that.

Ughhhh!

What the heck is up with all this paper tuning?

It's not like it isn't out dated and flawed....it is and very much so.

The question is why aren't more people picking up on this and helping others out by telling them to flight tune?

Where are the moderators or Pro's or anyone at this point?

To me ..... this is very disturbing!

I am a realtree fan big time.....love what they do for people but what about the people here?.

Seems like there is more need here then at any time I can remember prior.

Someone throw me a bone here! .... what is going on?

[Michiganbowhunter_SQ2]

paper tuning and walk back tuning are both effective ways of tuning, just because you choose to do it one way, doesn't mean the other is the wrong.

[buckee]

Paper tuning is flight tuning

[123 4/8 P&Y]

You are just the person I've been looking for. I've been having trouble paper tuning and I posted a question a while back about how to bare shaft tune. All I got were replies on how to paper tune. Not what I was looking for. Could you please explain flight tuning for me? Thanks.

[Tony]

Paper tuning is " short range " flight tuning. i dont know how many of you can see a 3/4 inch nock high tear with the naked eye. you must have really good eyes.

paper tuning is so simple and so easy to do. too many people are just making it so tough. if you set your bow up properly and use the proper arrow, paper tuning is like a 15 min process.

for me i like to visually see a mark that i can see either get slightly bigger or slightly smaller as i tune my bow. Guessing

as to whether the arrow flight out of your bow is getting better or worse when tuning is not how i want my bow tuned.

i do not guess at anything when it comes to my hunting or target bow setups.

Shoot Strong

Tony

[LifeNRA]

I came back here after a prolonged absents and what do I see?....paper tuning this and paper tuning that.

Ughhhh!

What the heck is up with all this paper tuning?

It's not like it isn't out dated and flawed....it is and very much so.

The question is why aren't more people picking up on this and helping others out by telling them to flight tune?

Where are the moderators or Pro's or anyone at this point?

To me ..... this is very disturbing!

I am a realtree fan big time.....love what they do for people but what about the people here?.

Seems like there is more need here then at any time I can remember prior.

Someone throw me a bone here! .... what is going on?

Not quite the response I thought you were going to give on FLIGHT TUNING! Instead of complainning about paper tuning. PLEASE TELL US WHAT IT IS!

[Guest shtr]

I did respond to your last question in the muzzy thread when you asked me this question NRA

Here is the responce.....

Very simple thing.

step by step.....

#1 draw a vertical and horizontal line on your target butt (use a level)

#2 At 10 yards sight the first pin in to hit the horizontal line.

#3 move back to 20 yards and shoot the horizontal line with that same pin.

If you are above the line then drop the rest until you hit the line (1/16" at a time max.)

If you are below the line , raise the rest.

#4 move back to 10 yards and shoot the vertical line.

Adjust the pin to hit the line.

#5 Move back to 20 yards and shoot the same line.

If you are right , move the rest left.

If you are left move the rest right until the arrow is on the line.

Each time you move the rest for horizontal or vertical , shoot to determine the next adjustment.

You can take the vertical line out to 40 yards and should if you have the shooting ability.

This method requires you to have good form.

Now that you are tuned it is time to go to a braodhead.

Choose a quality broadhead and repeat the above method to fine tune that head to your rig.

Final step .... go dump a buck!

_____________________________________________________________________

Let me explain why paper tuning cannot work unless by chance....

(and why top level tuners reject it's practice)

An arrow is in a state of constant osculation from the time it leaves the string and this osculation continues throughout the flight range until the arrow is well past it's flat flight trajectory curve.

Therefore the nock end of the shaft is constantly moving albeit slightly.

But....slightly is all it takes to make a tear

The paper will only tell you what happens at the point of impact and nothing prior or after , so you end up tuning the arrow for osculation at one point in time rather than overall flight.

Back in the day you might see real anal people paper tuning throughout 30 yards at 5 yard increments and I will admit that this worked .

( although it gained you nothing over walk back tuning and took alot of time to do.)

Paper tuning is fine to rough in an arrow but makes no sense in comparison since flight tuning allows you to tune right away without a rough in.

The average time it takes to flight tune a bow (once you have done it a few times) is about 10 - 15 minutes.

Flight tuing also allows you to screw on a broadhead and shoot right away whereas shooting a good broadhead group with a paper tuned bow is by chance.

I am not trying to call anyone who paper tunes an idiot ..... I am attempting to make sure that more people are heading into the woods ready and able this year.

If you are fighting with paper tuning and broadhead flight .... nothing good can come of that.

[Tony]

I did respond to your last question in the muzzy thread when you asked me this question NRA

Here is the responce.....

Very simple thing.

step by step.....

#1 draw a vertical and horizontal line on your target butt (use a level)

#2 At 10 yards sight the first pin in to hit the horizontal line.

#3 move back to 20 yards and shoot the horizontal line with that same pin.

If you are above the line then drop the rest until you hit the line (1/16" at a time max.)

If you are below the line , raise the rest.

#4 move back to 10 yards and shoot the vertical line.

Adjust the pin to hit the line.

#5 Move back to 20 yards and shoot the same line.

If you are right , move the rest left.

If you are left move the rest right until the arrow is on the line.

Each time you move the rest for horizontal or vertical , shoot to determine the next adjustment.

You can take the vertical line out to 40 yards and should if you have the shooting ability.

This method requires you to have good form.

Now that you are tuned it is time to go to a braodhead.

Choose a quality broadhead and repeat the above method to fine tune that head to your rig.

Final step .... go dump a buck!

_____________________________________________________________________

Let me explain why paper tuning cannot work unless by chance....

(and why top level tuners reject it's practice)

An arrow is in a state of constant osculation from the time it leaves the string and this osculation continues throughout the flight range until the arrow is well past it's flat flight trajectory curve.

Therefore the nock end of the shaft is constantly moving albeit slightly.

But....slightly is all it takes to make a tear

The paper will only tell you what happens at the point of impact and nothing prior or after , so you end up tuning the arrow for osculation at one point in time rather than overall flight.

Back in the day you might see real anal people paper tuning throughout 30 yards at 5 yard increments and I will admit that this worked .

( although it gained you nothing over walk back tuning and took alot of time to do.)

Paper tuning is fine to rough in an arrow but makes no sense in comparison since flight tuning allows you to tune right away without a rough in.

The average time it takes to flight tune a bow (once you have done it a few times) is about 10 - 15 minutes.

Flight tuing also allows you to screw on a broadhead and shoot right away whereas shooting a good broadhead group with a paper tuned bow is by chance.

I am not trying to call anyone who paper tunes an idiot ..... I am attempting to make sure that more people are heading into the woods ready and able this year.

If you are fighting with paper tuning and broadhead flight .... nothing good can come of that.

so by chance thousands of shooters for years have been nailing there bow setups using paper tuning as a means to set there rest and determine weak or too stiff a spine?

i guess its just easy for me to do. setting my rest for center shot is pretty easy and i only spend about 10 to 15 mins paper tuning. how can you ask a person to make a 1/16th of an inch adjustment to there rest and then shoot at 20 yards to see if it makes a differance. most are lucky if they can hold a 4 inch group at 20 yards. even the top shooters in the world cant shoot 1 inch groups 100% of the time at 20 yards. let alone trying to hit a line on a piece of paper at 20 yards.

is this line you want us to try and hit 1 inch wide? 2 inches wide, pen line, marker line or masking tape or what? seems the bigger the line the least accurate it would be?

you are using flight tuning to set center shot only. how then do you determine if your getting fletching contact or too weak or stiff a spine. just watch the arrow?

usually i never have to move my rest a bit once i set the rest on the bow. since i worked in a archery shop and have set lots of bows up this way im sticking with what i know and what works for me.

im sure your way to set a rest works, but isnt it kind of tough to go back and forth between 10 and 20 yards trying to hit a line that most cant even see, let alone hit? and you even want guys to try and hit a line at 30 and 40 yards?

Shoot Strong

Tony

[Michihunter]

Tony- I partially agree with you. But as with anything, there's usually more than one way to the desired results. I personally am hunter first and foremost so I KNOW I'm going to Broadhead Tune in the end regardless of which way I begin. For me personally, I'm doing a walk back (Flight tune) during the same time I'm broadhead tuning thus killing two birds with the proverbial one stone. If paper tuning works for you, that's great and no one should dissuade you from that. But I think you yourself willl admit that a lot of times, a perfect tear isn't always going to produce the BEST results. If I was to shoot my setup through paper, I can guarantee I'd get a slight high tear. I've seen this with many a setup and for those that aren't as prolific with tuning, this can get downright frustrating. In the end, I truly believe the best way to learn to tune is by following the Eastons Tuning Guide which by the way, includes both Flight tuning and paper tuning.

[Guest shtr]

so by chance thousands of shooters for years have been nailing there bow setups using paper tuning as a means to set there rest and determine weak or too stiff a spine?

Thousands of people are not nailing their set ups.

Thousands of people are satisfied with what they are getting because it's as good as their friends are getting.

I shoot 3-D alot and see seasoned hunters (not shooters) turning in scores that would embarrass most shooters , yet they are satisfied.

they assume that the people shooting higher scores are just better and often that is not the case at all.

What often makes the difference is the tune of the bow that is being shot.

i guess its just easy for me to do. setting my rest for center shot is pretty easy and i only spend about 10 to 15 mins paper tuning. how can you ask a person to make a 1/16th of an inch adjustment to there rest and then shoot at 20 yards to see if it makes a differance. most are lucky if they can hold a 4 inch group at 20 yards. even the top shooters in the world cant shoot 1 inch groups 100% of the time at 20 yards. let alone trying to hit a line on a piece of paper at 20 yards.

Center shot tuning is only going to work with a perfect arrow spine and with the huge spine differentials in carbon shafts this means that alot of people are shooting slightly over or under spine.

Center shot is a starting point and for those who do not have a bow which allows center shot it's a moot point.

is this line you want us to try and hit 1 inch wide? 2 inches wide, pen line, marker line or masking tape or what? seems the bigger the line the least accurate it would be?

I would recommend a line that is as wide as a piece of electrical tape....3/4"

you are using flight tuning to set center shot only. how then do you determine if your getting fletching contact or too weak or stiff a spine. just watch the arrow?

You are not using flight tuning to find center shot.

Who ever told you that?

You are using flight tuning to tune the flight of the arrow and if you are having contact issues you will find that out right away....same as paper tuning.....you have to check that first.

usually i never have to move my rest a bit once i set the rest on the bow. since i worked in a archery shop and have set lots of bows up this way I'm sticking with what i know and what works for me.

I am sure that this is what you do and this is what most shops do because they cannot afford the time to do the process correctly.

I have spent many years undoing/correcting shop tuning errors and I know just what your saying

im sure your way to set a rest works, but isnt it kind of tough to go back and forth between 10 and 20 yards trying to hit a line that most cant even see, let alone hit? and you even want guys to try and hit a line at 30 and 40 yards?

Shoot Strong

Tony

This is the mind set that allows people to be satisfied with 6 " groups and/or give up archery all together.

I have not met the person that could not be coached into hitting a 1" area at 30 yards but I have met many who believe that close enough is good enough due to being told as much.

You do not seem to have much faith in peoples ability to shoot well.

I on the other hand know that anyone can shoot well ..... they just have to understand how and have a properly tuned bow.

[Michiganbowhunter_SQ2]

Where are the moderators or Pro's or anyone at this point?

i think they have more to worry about than which tuning method everyone is using...both types of tuning are effective in their own way. which ever one someone chooses, is the one they choose, thousands of people have been getting great results for years using paper tuning, i don't think it is going to change just because it is not the way YOU prefer. if you don't do it, thats fine, don't treat it like it is a big tragedy and run back to your site and complain and bash our mods for "not doing anything about it" YOUR way is not always the BEST way for everyone. The mods here do a great job keeping this place going and don't need you to come in here and complain about how they are doing their job

[Slugger]

i agree with shtr 100 percent i have a bow /arrow flight tuning book published by easton and it says the same thing shtr is saying.

[Ohiobucks]

If you get on the Easton Archery website, they actually tell you how to paper tune...... :confused: Easton is wrong? :confused:

[Tony]

i agree with shtr 100 percent i have a bow /arrow flight tuning book published by easton and it says the same thing shtr is saying.

i also have the exact same book and it also has paper tuning in there.

Shoot Strong

Tony

[257bob]

I'm seeing this debate and realizing that if you set your bow up your way and it works GREAT! Whether you paper tune, walk back tune, or bare shaft tune it doesn't matter if it gives you the results that you are looking for. Now then if some shooters are content with shooting (by your standards shtr) sub par then let them. It's the same with gun hunters that just want to hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Not everyone has the time, patience or knowledge to set up a finely tuned bow that shoots perfect and yet they still manage to kill deer every year. I prefer bare shaft paper tuning, it works for me. I think in most instances paper tuning is the easiest and most convenient place to start. If that doesn't give you the results that you are looking for by all means don't be satisfied try another method.

BOTTOM LINE WHAT WORKS FOR ME ISN'T WRONG, WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ISN'T WRONG AND IT IS WRONG FOR ANYONE TO GET ON HERE AND CRITICIZE AND CONDEMN ANOTHER METHOD JUST BECAUSE WHAT THEY DO WORKS FOR THEM.

[Muzzy61]

I'm seeing this debate and realizing that if you set your bow up your way and it works GREAT! Whether you paper tune, walk back tune, or bare shaft tune it doesn't matter if it gives you the results that you are looking for. Now then if some shooters are content with shooting (by your standards shtr) sub par then let them. It's the same with gun hunters that just want to hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Not everyone has the time, patience or knowledge to set up a finely tuned bow that shoots perfect and yet they still manage to kill deer every year. I prefer bare shaft paper tuning, it works for me. I think in most instances paper tuning is the easiest and most convenient place to start. If that doesn't give you the results that you are looking for by all means don't be satisfied try another method.

BOTTOM LINE WHAT WORKS FOR ME ISN'T WRONG, WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ISN'T WRONG AND IT IS WRONG FOR ANYONE TO GET ON HERE AND CRITICIZE AND CONDEMN ANOTHER METHOD JUST BECAUSE WHAT THEY DO WORKS FOR THEM.

AMEN! I agree 100%

[Slugger]

yes tony it has papertuning in there too but it is a preliminary step before flight tuning. I have always skipped papertuning but thats just me

[Guest shtr]

I'm seeing this debate and realizing that if you set your bow up your way and it works GREAT! Whether you paper tune, walk back tune, or bare shaft tune it doesn't matter if it gives you the results that you are looking for. Now then if some shooters are content with shooting (by your standards shtr) sub par then let them. It's the same with gun hunters that just want to hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Not everyone has the time, patience or knowledge to set up a finely tuned bow that shoots perfect and yet they still manage to kill deer every year. I prefer bare shaft paper tuning, it works for me. I think in most instances paper tuning is the easiest and most convenient place to start. If that doesn't give you the results that you are looking for by all means don't be satisfied try another method.

BOTTOM LINE WHAT WORKS FOR ME ISN'T WRONG, WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ISN'T WRONG AND IT IS WRONG FOR ANYONE TO GET ON HERE AND CRITICIZE AND CONDEMN ANOTHER METHOD JUST BECAUSE WHAT THEY DO WORKS FOR THEM.

While I commend the attitude in this point of view I cant agree with the mind set that good enough is good enough.

Let me take something that you said which I strongly disagree with as to merit of the argument.

It's the same with gun hunters that just want to hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Not everyone has the time, patience or knowledge to set up a finely tuned bow that shoots perfect and yet they still manage to kill deer every year.

Many of these people manage to wound as many as they kill.

(not all..... many)

I grew up in a gun shop and know just what you are saying.

Same goes for archery.

Not having the time , patience or knowledge can each be addressed separately.

Time : If you don't have the time then stay out of the woods.

This attitude is what the anti's rail against and what gives them the substance to argue with.

Pictures of animals walking about with arrows projecting from hips and the like are not what I want because thats what makes it harder for me to convince non-hunters that hunting is ethical and morally right.

On top of that....if you cant muster the time it takes to be proficient then why not use a gun?.

Knowledge: I am not speaking to people who don't have access to knowledge....I am speaking on a public forum and to people who have enough desire to have brought themselves here.

More times than not they come for help.

If you cant find the time to acquire the knowledge that it takes to do the job right then again....why are you out there?.

Patience: Bowhunting is all about patience.

If you cant take the time to get the knowledge to be the best you can be then again....why are you out there?

Patience is the worst reason I can think of for not doing something correctly.

If you have so little disregard for the animal that you pursue or the people you share the woods with then you are of little use to anyone or in a word....selfish!.

Fortunately the people who fit this profile are out numbered by those who take pride in their ability to apply what they have learned and are willing to learn more in order to be successful.

I believe that this is the majority and this is why I am seeking the path of least Resistance to that knowledge.

My only purpose on the net is to educate those who desire to excel and to continue my own education for that one purpose.

I don't really care about those who don't care about our future or our present.

[Ohiobucks]

To each his own. Proper set up and practice. My bow is paper tuned and works just fine for what I'm doing with it. If I was competition shooting and 1/2" made a difference, maybe I would look into fine tuning, micro tuning, etc.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of archers do nothing more than that and kill every year......

Practice shooting, get a comfortable range established, and stick with it.

JMHO.

[Guest shtr]

HERE IS THE DIFFERENCE AN INCH MAKES.

GET TO FINE TUNING

Notice how 1" changes things

At 2/3rds. we just miss the heart and opposite lung but at 3/4 we nail it perfect.

This is why I urge many people to practice and tune till you can hit a 1" point of aim.

(aim small miss small )

[Tominator]

To each his own. Proper set up and practice. My bow is paper tuned and works just fine for what I'm doing with it. If I was competition shooting and 1/2" made a difference, maybe I would look into fine tuning, micro tuning, etc.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of archers do nothing more than that and kill every year......

Practice shooting, get a comfortable range established, and stick with it.

JMHO.

Tom's my friend!

I agree with him too.

[Ohiobucks]

A good broadhead and that deer is dead and found with both shots IMO.

[Ohiobucks]

BUT, you could be right, the heart is always closest to the opposite side of the animal you are shooting at, not the center of the chest.....

[Guest shtr]

BUT, you could be right, the heart is always closest to the opposite side of the animal you are shooting at, not the center of the chest.....

LOL! ~ smart guy huh?!

Well look at it this way....the heart is half the size of the one on the pic and the lungs don't go to the hair line either

And .... if that deer was exhaling on impact it would be a clean miss.

ex-rays show that the lungs contract by 40% at full exhale

[Michiganbowhunter_SQ2]

I'm seeing this debate and realizing that if you set your bow up your way and it works GREAT! Whether you paper tune, walk back tune, or bare shaft tune it doesn't matter if it gives you the results that you are looking for. Now then if some shooters are content with shooting (by your standards shtr) sub par then let them. It's the same with gun hunters that just want to hit a pie plate at 100 yards. Not everyone has the time, patience or knowledge to set up a finely tuned bow that shoots perfect and yet they still manage to kill deer every year. I prefer bare shaft paper tuning, it works for me. I think in most instances paper tuning is the easiest and most convenient place to start. If that doesn't give you the results that you are looking for by all means don't be satisfied try another method.

BOTTOM LINE WHAT WORKS FOR ME ISN'T WRONG, WHAT WORKS FOR YOU ISN'T WRONG AND IT IS WRONG FOR ANYONE TO GET ON HERE AND CRITICIZE AND CONDEMN ANOTHER METHOD JUST BECAUSE WHAT THEY DO WORKS FOR THEM.

Well said!

If you find something that works for you, go ahead and keep doing it!

BTW...Mathews is better than hoyt, Chevys are better than fords, and all that other crap!