Bible question

[Missilelock]

I am reading & struggling a bit with Romans 9 this morning.- specifically about verses 14 to 25. I dont know how to do the whole cut & paste thing but maybe you all could throw me out some wisdom here??? Lane

[Jeramie]

Ill help ya out with the copy/ paste....

Romans 9

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[a] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[b] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[c] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:

"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;

and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[d]

[Jeramie]

And this is the King James version. It helps sometimes to look it up in different versions....

Passage Romans 9:14-25:

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

[Ravin R10 man]

Rom:15..If God were not free to show his mercy, no one would be blessed, because we dont deserve His grace, and one can not earn it.

Rom: 19 to 21..Paul is simply saying, if a potter can do what he wishes with his vessels..then God can with His.

Rom: 22.. because of their own actions of rejecting the truth, they are headed for their own destruction.

[Missilelock]

I guess vs 18 is the one I am working on.....Im just not understanding the concept thatGod created someone with the purpose in mind of hardening their heart.

[buckee]

His mercy to us is shown by the grace and mercy we receive, when we believe in his son. Jesus is that mercy. Aside from him, and his sacrifice in our place, there are no works, or simply the following of commandments and laws that can save us. It was his plan in the beginning that the law alone does not justify, but it is faith, and relationship with him.

He choose it to be so from the beginning. Disobeying the law was death, but for those who had faith in God, who made the law was forgiveness, grace and love.

And I do believe he hardens the hearts of those who don't believe in him, to show his power in the end. And I also believe his saints suffer, for the same purpose.

There are days I wonder why God even made me, because I am ashamed of myself, and feel worthless, but, like it says, who an I to even ask the question. So for whatever reason he made me, it is by faith in him and his grace, that I will live.

[buckee]

I guess vs 18 is the one I am working on.....Im just not understanding the concept that God created someone with the purpose in mind of hardening their heart.

It doesn't say his purpose in mind was for destruction. What he is saying, is that when man rejects God, it has already been preordained by God for his heart to be hardened. The longer he rejects him, the harder his heart becomes. In verse 22 we see where God is willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

So God suffers himself to watch the hardening of such people, but he lets them suffer because he has preordained the results of their actions, and he allows it to ultimately show his Power in the end.

That's how I understand it, and if you read on past verse 25, I think it is made more clear.

[Guest flyrodsnlongbows]

The ninth chapter of Romans is perhaps one the greatest collection of scriptures pointing to Gods Sovereign Election of who will be saved, and who will perish. Many view these scriptures as "unfair", and question Gods Elective powers. Nevertheless Gods Word is His Word. Verses 11-13 give a clear proclamation that Gods people are chosen by Him....

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Here we see God state that Jacob who is Israel will be chosen as his people, even though Esau carried the birthright by being first born. Think about it, God is saying that before the two boys were ever born, or had a chance to do good, or bad God had elected one to be chosen over the other. God further states that no work on their part can change Gods Election.

In verses 23 through 25 God states that people who are not His people, will become His people because they were as He said afore prepared. This takes us back to Ephesians 1:4-12 were God declares that His people, that is the Church were chosen before the world was ever formed.

Now, some will ask, does God create some for destruction?. In our human minds, and through our emotions we proclaim the answer to be no, because we cannot come to grips with a God who would do such a thing. However, we know that Scripture states that God pre Elected people to be saved, and the Scriptures are very clear that God Elected others unto destruction.

In verse 12 of Second Peter we see that certain men were made to be taken and destroyed. Those who have read the Exodus of Israel see clearly that it was God Who continually hardened the heart of Pharoah. In fact, at one point Pharoah expressed to Aaron a desire to "get right with God", only to have God harden his heart further.

In Romans 9:18 God is clear....He decides who recieves Mercy, and who will perish. Sadly such scriptures are rejected or explained away by many today who feel that mans own will , will decide his fate, thus ignoring Gods Proclamation of Sovereign Election.

Remember, the Pharisees claimed to be children of God, and Abraham. They attended temple, they tithed, and they practiced perfect religion .They prayed openly for all men to see. They leaned heavy on their works . They made it a point to let everyone know they belonged to God. However Jesus had a completely different opinion of who they are.

Today we have very similar people. People who boast in their faith, people who attend buildings they call churches, people who tithe, get baptized, take communion, pray publicly for all to hear, and who practice perfect religion.

Gods Word in Romans 9 points out that all of that is for nought, unless one has been Elected by God unto Mercy, which leads to having faith in Christ Jesus. It also points out that despite all of mans outward appearances, his heart may still be hardened, and no proclamation of his own faith will change that.

The good news is that our salvation is not based upon our works, or our will as we see in Romans 9-16. That is a good thing because if men were given over to their own free will, all men would perish because if given a choice to choose God or sin, man will choose sin everytime.

Thankfully Jesus told His Children.....Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.......that is wonderful.