New age muzzleloading

[AJ]

No thanks. I will stick with the tried and proven Savage. I visit a few Savage ML sites and have not heard "all of the horror stories". I know of one occurrance, that has not been proven to be the users fault, but thats it.

[DannoBoone1]

Re: New age muzzleloading

Concerning the Savage, "all of the horror stories"??? I'll

take that piece of junk off your hands AND pay the

postage for ya!

I would even pay ya a little sumthin' for the rifle IF you

can give me an instance of more than ONE horror story!

[AJ]

Re: New age muzzleloading

Aaron,

Like I originally said, other than the one singular occurrance where are all of these horror storries? Personally, I am not convinced it was not setup for failure. All of your posts lead to TB and a one time thing. I feel safe putting my head on the stock and shooting the gun.

So, what do you have to do with centerfire ml? Do you work for them? Are you just trying to get exposure? Are you trying to get a job with them? I see your same post on more than one message board, so whats the deal?

[Guest RandyWakeman]

Re: New age muzzleloading

[ QUOTE ]

comments made by Tony, these are his thoughts while testing for savage not mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Toby Bridges is being quoted, consider his OWN WORDS-- and, the DATES:

"The recent, public statements made by Toby Bridges reveal all most would ever need to know-- and then some:

While attacking BassPro and Cabela's for their ignorance of the safety of the Savage 10ML-II, Toby Bridges had this to say publicly on August 16, 2004:

Re: Should You Buy ML From Bass Pro/Cabela's on: 08/16/2004 at 06:34:31

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

Thanks guys,

I appreciate the support. I imagine that I'll most likely catch a little flack today...from somewhere or another over all this. But, it is way past time to set the record straight about the Savage Model 10ML II, and getting two giants in the retailing business to stop spreading false information about the safety of the rifle is paramount.

Thanks again,

Toby

BassPro and Cabela's were also taken to task just a day earlier by Bridges:

Re: Should You Buy ML From Bass Pro/Cabela's on: 08/15/2004 at 17:23:32

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

<SNIP>

And maybe the fourth major growth spurt will be with the chain sporting goods stores, like Gander Mountain (with 60 to 65 stores) bringing the latest and the best into locals across the country. Maybe, just maybe, with Gander handling the 10ML II, Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's will pull their heads out of the sand and see where muzzleloading is headed, educate themselves on shooting such a modern in-line rifle, and get back to selling the latest and the best instead of the cheapest and crudest like the CVA Optima Pro. The only thing "optimum" about that rifle is that it is optimum crap. But both Bass Pro and Cabela's push the heck out of them.

Toby

Re: Should You Buy ML From Bass Pro/Cabela's on: 08/15/2004 at 16:04:08

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

As I said in the write up...whether these two giant catalogers offer the 10ML II or not won't make or break Savage. <SNIP>

What bothers me, is that the sales people at BPS and Cabela's are "authoritatively" telling folks that the 10ML II rifles are dangerous.

Toby

On August 15, Toby still offers duplex load tips:

08/15/2004 at 08:19:33

Started by SW | Post by Savagefan

For carrying the duplex loads in the field, I use 2 .308 cases. One I have marked (liberally) with a red permanent Magic Marker...and in that one I carry my base or ignitor charge. In the other unmarked case, I carry my primary charge.

Both cases are capped with one of the small plastic caps Brownell's offers for plastic parts tubes. These have a 1/4" inch wide lip or flange that slides down around and over the neck of the .30 caliber cases very well. And I then take an inch or so long piece of vinyl electrician's tape and wrap it tightly around the flange and case neck, forming a very, very moisture proof seal. (I've kept loads loaded in these cases for more than a year and still had them print at the same POI.) <SNIP>

Poacher Bridges invites fellow hunters to break the law:

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Michigan Hunters on: 08/11/2004 at 15:42:21

Started by Tom | Post by Savagefan

<SNIP>

But, if I were hunting Michigan during this year's ML season...I would hunt with smokeless and wouldn't care who knew it. The regs, as written, make the paper they're printed on worthless.

And the DNR can no longer claim they didn't know that, as they are written, smokeless is perfectly legal. It's one of the dumbest ML regs in the country.

Bureaucracy does not change overnight. Sometimes it takes a revolution...so revolt!

Toby

Still August, 2004, and Bridges waxes enthusiastic over the three hole vent-liner:

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Savage First Time on: 08/09/2004 at 10:12:25

Started by ourway7 | Post by Savagefan

<snip>

There are a lot of folks out there shooting with the 3-hole liner now who are experiencing great accuracy. Personally, that's what I intend to keep on using. And this winter I will work on completely new ballistics for Savage...conducting all shooting with the 3-hole liner.

<snip>

Toby

STILL August, 2004 and Toby Bridges touts the superb, safe Savage 10ML-II:

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 14:37:34

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

<SNIP>

Believe me, the folks at Knight, T/C, CVA, Traditions simply relish the thought that they've been able to control the buyers at BPS and Cabela's well enough that the 10ML II rifle is still not offered by these companies.

They feel that they own this market...and they are not about to let any of it slip away from them. And, like I said, Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's are the two top muzzleloader retailing operations in the country...in the world. Getting the rifle into one or both of those catalogs would let the other companies know that they don't control anything. And millions of muzzleloading shooters who still have no idea that the rifle exists (due to poor promotional efforts) will suddenly know that there is a Model 10ML II smokeless muzzleloader that shoots fast, flat and clean.

On the other hand, as long as the buyers/sales people at BPS and Cabela's talk bad about this superb muzzleloader, the longer the fear factor will be in control.

It's simply time to squash the b.s. that's being spread about the dangers of shooting smokeless in this rifle. It's time to bring smokeless muzzleloading out of the closet and into mainstream muzzleloading America.

<SNIP>

Toby

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 13:08:41

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

<SNIP>

I hear from shooters all the time who complain about the lame excuses they get about why BPS or Cabela's don't handle the 10ML II...or how the "experts" behind the counters at the super stores these two companies now operate are totally ignorant about the fact that such a great muzzleloader exists. But when I talk with folks in management, they claim that they hardly ever get any inquiries about the Savage. Talk about being in the dark.

So...to get back on track slightly...if any of you have ever inquired with anyone at Bass Pro Shops or Cabela's about why they don't offer the Savage muzzleloader...I would love to hear the answer you got or response you got to anything you tried to share with them about the 10ML II.

Toby

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 08:36:49

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

<SNIP>

That was then, and this is now. In fact, that was more than 35,000 smokeless rounds ago. Now I fully know how well the power, efficiency and cleanliness of these powders can be harnessed...in a MUZZLELOADER.

And I fully understand why Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's (today's two major muzzleloading retailers) stuck their heads in the sand to "wait and see" what kind of catastrophies lay ahead. But, there haven't been any. And it is way past due for these companies to pull their heads out of the sand and finally take a look around. Five years of blindness is long enough.

Toby

Savage Muzzleloading Message Board / Re: Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's on: 08/03/2004 at 06:17:27

Started by Savagefan | Post by Savagefan

<SNIP>

Someone in one of the posts here mentioned how these companies "cater to the big ML makers". And that's exactly the problem here. For the most part, the folks who put together the offering of ML products in these catalogs know just enough about muzzleloading to be dangerous. And when the Model 10ML II was introduced, these big catalogers simply swallowed the "dangerous rhetoric" that Knight...T/C...CVA...and others were feeding them. No one at Bass Pro Shops or Cabela's was technically inclined or experienced enough with muzzleloading to come to such a decision entirely on their own.

The Savage 10ML/ML II rifles have been produced since 2000, and in the five years since I shot the first prototypes for Savage, there have been just over 20,000 produced. And in that time, to my knowledge, no one has been injured due to a gun failing. And neither has there been a sharp rise in the number of one-handed muzzleloading shooters/hunters who were tempted to load smokeless powders into "other" in-line frontloaders - as the other companies all swore would happen.

Hopefully, there are some decision makers at Bass Pro Shops and Cabela's with the intelligence to now realize what a crock of B.S. the other muzzleloader companies have been feeding them.

Please keep posting your input on this thread...if you guys don't tell them, they sure as heck won't ever know.

Toby "

THERE IT IS.

[hangunnr]

Re: New age muzzleloading

I've said this before but for those with a short memory or those new to this forum.........

Leave Toby Bridges OUT of the discussion. If Toby chooses to come back to this site and discuss his situation in a mature and professional manner then he is more than welcome. NO ONE but Bridges knows exactly what happened the day his Savage puked so any input by anyone but him is purely speculation...........

With that said, any further posts mentioning or quoting Toby Bridges will be deleted as soon as I see them.

hangunnr

[DannoBoone1]

Re: New age muzzleloading

After searching, I have not been able to find a web site

for New Age Muzzleloading.

One of the custom rifle barrel makers told me they would

not recommend shooting smokeless in an Encore barrel,

even though they used the best steel which is ordinarilly

used for CF. The reason being, there is not enough

diameter on the bridge of the receiver of the Encore

to allow enough thickness of the barrel (we were talking

.50 caliber).

However, Smokeless Muzzleloading, who has been

making smokeless barrels for the NEF will also make

a smokeless barrel for the Encore. To date, I have

been erring on the side of caution.

[AJ]

Re: New age muzzleloading

It's a little different when a large firearms producer markets a revolutionary type of gun. Its another when a no-name start-up company trys to adapt existing hardware to meet new technology. The modified breechplug they make turns a muzzleloader that was designed for black powder, and pyrodex into a hybrid rifle. It is no longer loaded entirely from the muzzle. The propellant is loaded from the breech. Only the bullet is loaded from the muzzle. This alone would make it illegal in many states for use in muzzleloading seasons.

[Guest RandyWakeman]

Re: New age muzzleloading

The obvious problem that it is not a muzzleloader, any more than a M1 Garand shooting a .30-06 blank cartridge in grenade launcher mode would be considered a muzzleloader.

[DannoBoone1]

Re: New age muzzleloading

[ QUOTE ]

The obvious problem that it is not a muzzleloader, any more than a M1 Garand shooting a .30-06 blank cartridge in grenade launcher mode would be considered a muzzleloader.

[/ QUOTE ]

.......depends.........If the cartridge is already loaded

with powder, that would be true here in Iowa. However, if

the powder were to be dropped from the muzzle down

into the case, then bullet shoved down, it would

be considered "muzzle loading", as long as it was a

bullet and not a grenade. It's not something

I would really care to do on top of a live primer, but it

would be legal.

[Guest RandyWakeman]

Re: New age muzzleloading

If the cartridge is already loaded

with powder, that would be true here in Iowa.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the case in this specific example.

[DannoBoone1]

Re: New age muzzleloading

[ QUOTE ]

If the cartridge is already loaded

with powder, that would be true here in Iowa.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is the case in this specific example.

[/ QUOTE ]

.........but NOT the case in my specific example. The

point was simply that the system could be made legal

in Iowa.

[Guest Elkslayer54]

Re: New age muzzleloading

I have two Encores three Remingtons and a ole Hawkins. I am not new to ml. But here is the thing. I do not want to shoot smokeless powder in any ML it just takes something away for me. But I did call Thompson the other day and asked if they knew of the Savage and they said yes and I asked could I use the same consept in the Encore. start low on the powder charge and work my way up. And there response was DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN AN ENCORE. IT MIGHT BLOW UP AND KILL YOU OR A INNOCENT STANDBYER. I asked, so you are saying that the encore barrel is not as strong as the savages? Thompsons reply was NO IT IS NOT. DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER. Again I don't want to shoot smokeless powder but it is nice to know where the Thompson people stand. So I would NOT shoot smokeless in an Encore if I was you!

[too_pointer]

Re: New age muzzleloading

Thanks Elk No smokeless in my Encore LOL.

too_