Doc

Re: Deer Count Quite a while ago, I visited the website of the outfit that was doing that survey for PA. Sorry, I do not remember their name. However, they were talking some pretty impressive accuracy numbers, as I recall. They also had some pictures of the typical count fly-over, and I was quite impressed with the clarity and detail of the images. They were showing pictures of an elk count that they had done out west somewhere, and there was absolutely no confusion about what kind of animal it was or how many were in each group. I have no idea what they charge, but it sure looked like good way to get an accurate look at the population. Doc

Re: We should be ashamed!! [ QUOTE ] To me, there are far more important things in life to get bent out of shape about then hunting rights. So maybe your right, maybe we oughta be ashamed......but not because of our hunting rights. [/ QUOTE ] I think we are all capable of having passionate opinions about more than one thing at once ..... lol. Probably hunting is not at the top of the list in terms of priorities or importance in the world scheme of things, but that shouldn't reflect on our willingness to hold certain opinions and convictions on the subject. Come on now, surely you have the ability to be passionate on other subjects besides "world hunger". We're not going to wait until all the world problems are solved before we start discussing hunting related items are we? Probably not. And I hope we are not all sitting around feeling ashamed as we talk a little hunting. Doc

Re: deer vitamins? Well, I guess $50 is pretty darn reasonable. It just struck me kind of funny to hear that guys were buying vitamins for wild deer....lol. Doc

Re: Stupid Beavers Again! It's time that you treated yourself to a new hobby. Buy up some traps and learn the honorable profession of trapping. Have a lot of fun and pick up some extra cash along with learning a whole heck of a lot about wildlife. It's darn good exercise too. Doc

Re: trapping Check out the magazine Fur-Fish-Game. They usually have a complete rundown of fur prices in the back. Your big challenge may be to find a local buyer. Around here they used to be everywhere. Now we have to get hooked up with some regional trapping organization and peddle the furs at their auctions. I haven't done any trapping in about 30 years, but I used to be addicted to it. As effective as the animal rights people have been at vilifying trapping, and ruining the market, it's a wonder there's anyone still doing it. But as far as I'm concerned, it is still an honorable profession and one that requires the greatest amount of woodlore knowledge and intimate understanding of nature of all the outdoor sports combined. My hat's off to anyone who still is active in trapping. Doc

Re: deer vitamins? Oh come on. You guys don't really feed your deer vitamins do you? Seriously? Are you trying to supplement deer food resources or running a goat farm .... lol. Don't you think that is getting just a bit carried away? You guys are going to go broke trying to raise a wild herd with that level of detail. What do you suppose those deer are worth per pound? I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck, but just how far do you go in manufacturing your deer? Seems like there comes a point where you spend so much money that you had better be getting some income off of them just to keep people from questioning your sanity....lol. Doc

Re: We should be ashamed!! It sounds like we're all saying pretty much the same thing. It's not the topics that are the problem, but rather occasionally the way arguments are presented. That's a point that I think I made in each of my replies. Also, I hope we are now aware that no matter what happens on this or any forum, it is not going to lead us to some non-hunting situation that is occurring in some other country. I hear that so much on these forums.... The notion that discussions on forums are going to lead to the abolishment of hunting. Hey, I know that we all consider ourselves pretty important people, but let's not get carried away with whatever super-influence we might think that we have .... lol. And for crying out loud, let's not ever get to the situation where we are ashamed to have opinions, regardless what they are. If we get to the point where we have to check our honesty and openess at the door, I really don't know what value these forums will have left. Doc

Re: We Should Not be ashamed!!! [ QUOTE ] ya but complain about it when others cant even do it that is something to be ashamed of [/ QUOTE ] Does that mean that because there are starving people in this world that I can't complain about how my steak is done? ..... lol. Doc

Re: We should be ashamed!! [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I was reading down through some of the posts today and i read the thread by Darkarcher of Wales and how almost all hunting is but illegal there. That really got me to thinking how fortunate we have it here as hunters. I think we should remember this the next time we want to argue about things like compounds/crossbows,trophy hunting/meat hunting,tradition/modern,brands of bows or the other stupid things we hunters argue about. I have been quilty of some of these these things but hope i never again take for granted the privilege we have in hunting and in living in the greatest country on Gods green earth. John [/ QUOTE ] I totally disagree!!!! What's wrong with a little discussion and/or argument every once in a while. Just because we sometimes disagree does not mean we don't respect each other. We have the freedoms to hunt and the freedom of speech!!! Were not all the same "robotic" people with the exact same views. So what if our views are different!!!! Having different views makes this forum interesting!!!! --rossman [/ QUOTE ] Well, finally! I was getting to feel like the Lone Ranger here. Kind of like being thrown into a remake of the "Stepford Wives", called "The Stepford Hunters" .....lol. Doc

Re: We should be ashamed!! You guys are all talking about the way arguments are presented, not the topics themselves. I have already said that that is a valid point (several times already, in fact). The point I am getting at is that the original post by Spikekiller implied that there were several topics (and he listed some of those as "compounds/crossbows,trophy hunting/meat hunting,tradition/modern,brands of bows or the other stupid things we hunters argue about" That would eventually bring about a situation here that would be similar to Wales where "almost all hunting is but illegal there". My response is that that simply is not true. I don't believe that their situation in Wales has anything to do with controversial discussions or disagreements. There are no topics on this or any forum that is realistically going to bring about that result. Further, I think that trying to stifle these topics along with any others that might be deemed "controversial" is really a bad thing for this forum and hunting in general. If there are people who think that hunting can't withstand discussions that involve anything that others may disagree with, then I simply, respectfully disagree. And to indicate that "we should be ashamed" at bringing up any subject that may contain any controversy, is just absurd. I really can't make it any clearer than that. Doc

Re: Garden deer and dogs...... I wonder if coyotes or other deer predators ever catch on to deer feeders and start making regular rounds to check them out. It sounds like that is what has happened with this dog. He actually figured it out .... lol. I know it's not really funny, but when I think about this dog sitting in his yard, resting his chin on his paw, pondering the odds that the feeder and the deer are merely coincidence, It conjures up a pretty funny scenario. Doc

Re: Deer Count I believe that PA is involved in some kind of aerial survey. I really don't know the details though. Doc

Re: Tracks-how big is big? Over the years, I have seen and heard all kinds of claims about deer tracks and it's surprising how many of them contradict each other .... lol. The only thing I could say is if there are other tracks in the area that are about the same age, then comparison of penetration into the dirt should be indicitive of weight. I think also when you run into a track that is unusually larger than the others, that could indicate a larger sized animal. But remember, just like people, some deer just simply have bigger feet than others. I have also seen claims about the sharpness of the points, with the more worn tips belonging to older deer. A whole lot of the qualities of a track can vary because of the deer's gait. A bounding track will impact the ground harder than a walking track and will therefore appear deeper. Beware of slight skidding that will tend to elongate the track. Some of this stuff may actually have some merit, but few of the so-called experts ever really commit their theories to paper where the average hunter can read them. When is the last time you ever watched one of these hunting videos and had the guy stop and have a short discussion on tracks. When was the last hunting magazine where they had an article on track interpretation. I really wish these guys wouldn't shy away from such info. My suspicion is that as soon as they publicly make statements on such things there will be 50 other experts that come out of the woodwork and contradict what they say .... lol. I would like to know more about tracks and their interpretation. It sounds like track interpretation is a pretty in-exact science. If anyone knows of a good reliable and credible source of information, maybe you could do us all a favor by pointing us toward it. Doc

Re: We should be ashamed!! I just really hate these implications that hunters have anything that they could discuss that would have any negative impact on the well-being of hunting. That is just simply selling short the dedication of hunters toward their sport. Why is it that some of you have such a low impression of the ability of hunters as a group being able to have hard discussions on difficult subjects. Why do you automatically assume that because one guy disagrees with another on some point that all of a sudden he is not going to join a unified front against any attack on the sport? Do you all believe that hunting is so fragile that it cannot withstand some internal scrutiny and self-study? I'm sorry, but I have much more faith and respect for the sport and the individuals in it than that. I have yet to see a topic that has fractured our resolve against the anti-hunting movement. And no, it is not true that "we should be ashamed" about discussing "things like compounds/crossbows,trophy hunting/meat hunting,tradition/modern,brands of bows or the other stupid things we hunters argue about". These are all legitimate topics and it is healthy to air out opinions in these areas. And, no there is not a one of these topics that run any risk of disunity when it comes to threats against hunting. You may disagree with the way opinions are presented, but a chill goes through me when anyone suggests that there are things in hunting that we feel we should keep quiet about. One of the things I admire most about hunters as a group is their ability to express opinions on any hunting related subject with a freedom of openess and honesty. And any time someone feels "ashamed" because they have, in a civil manner, posted or participated in some topic that they honestly have an opinion about, that is the time when we really better start worrying about the health of our hunting, because in reality what we are saying is that there are things in hunting that we are vulnerable against. And things that we dare not discuss. That is simply not true. There is nothing in any part of hunting that I am not willing to discuss in a sane and civil fashion. I'll leave the dishonesty and hiding of facts to the anti crowd. Furthermore, I just know that the same person I may have been debating on one of these controversial subjects will be right there along side of me when the anti-hunters start up one of their assaults. No, there is absolutely no link between forum topic selection and the lack of hunting priviledges in some other country. There is no connection whatever. Doc

Re: We should be ashamed!! [ QUOTE ] I was reading down through some of the posts today and i read the thread by Darkarcher of Wales and how almost all hunting is but illegal there. That really got me to thinking how fortunate we have it here as hunters. I think we should remember this the next time we want to argue about things like compounds/crossbows,trophy hunting/meat hunting,tradition/modern,brands of bows or the other stupid things we hunters argue about. I have been quilty of some of these these things but hope i never again take for granted the privilege we have in hunting and in living in the greatest country on Gods green earth. John [/ QUOTE ] I guess I really don't get the connection. Just because some countries have knuckled under to the anti-hunting forces, I don't really see why that should define what our discussions are here. If the inference is that because we take on some controversial topics here that somehow this is going to cause anti forces to succeed in the US, I completely disagree with that. The basics of hunting legality are still something that we all agree on, and I'm sure we are in complete unity on that score regardless of how we feel about the topics you listed. One thing that I feel very strongly about is that fear of anti-hunting organizations should not set the agenda for any of the discussions that we have here. Also, I believe that the very purpose of hunting forums is to discuss even the things that we might disagree about. Further, having some of these spirited debates on here are useful in clarifying our own arguments with the animal rights people. It doesn't serve us well to only be familiar with one side of hunting issues (our own personal side). Understanding exactly why someone may disagree with some aspect of hunting is very useful in giving you a heads-up when discussing the issue with anti-hunters or non-hunters. I will tell you that I have had many non-hunters ask some of the same questions that I see on this forum. Having already seen the pros and cons on here or other forums, gave me a chance to answer them with clarity and understanding as well as being prepared for any follow-up points that they may have had. The problem on these hunting forums is not the topics or the fact that there may be some controversy to some of the topics. The biggest difficulty is that some lose complete control of how to express themselves. That's what should be worked on ..... not topic selection. Do not let the anti-hunting forces scare you out of honest hunting related discussions. This is our forum and not theirs, so let's be sure that it is us who are setting the tone and topics here, not the anti's. Doc

I am curious as to how many states actually do a live deer count as part of their management system. Does your state do a count? I don't necessarily mean on an annual basis, but just often enough to verify their statistical calculations and assumptions. If so, what method do they use? Doc

Re: Frost Seeding #1 I am putting in a general lawn-seed mixture. It's already bought. The stuff was cheap because of a large home supply chain store going out of business. So I got it very cheap, which was one of my objectives. #2 No prep work. The soil is so nasty that I am assuming an analysis would just tell me to forget it or put on so much fertilizer and other soil treatments that I would go broke trying to make it perfect. #3 I am trying to get the area back to where it was. That being a mowed green area that is kept free of brush and weeds, looks good, and still draws in deer like it used to. The installation and then removal of the pond has left the field pretty much of a raw, subsoil, mud-pit, so I figured this is the time to urge it back to the way it was. The choices were to just let it go back wild or simply slap something mowable down to keep out the weeds and brush. As a youngster, I spent enough of my hours clearing land for my Dad that I have built up this natural aversion toward letting anything that has once been cleared go back to brush .... lol. If it should turn out to be a good draw for deer like it used to be, so much the better. There isn't really any farming around here anymore and most of the land has gone back to mature or nearly mature woods. So, a small green field wouldn't exactly be the worst thing that I could maintain. What I do not want to do is to spend gobs of money on it. I really don't have any of that stuff. While the seed was extremely cheap, I still have no interest in just throwing it away, hence the question about the reliability of frost seeding. Doc

Re: Frost Seeding [ QUOTE ] Based on that, I'd dump crap loads of manure on it all year, work that in come fall, then plant your seed. [/ QUOTE ] Like I said, no farmers in the area. No farmers - no manure .... lol. It's a tough situation all the way around. However, I don't need a 100% germination rate either. All I really need is sufficient germination an annual spread rate afterward to ward off the encroachment of weeds. Actually, before the pond was built, I had a pretty good grass cover that was developed by several years of just mowing the weeds. Eventually the constant mowing killed off all the broadleaf weeds and only the grasses were able to survive the constant mowing. However, this time I would like to give the grasses a bit of a head start by seeding so I don't have to wait a million years to get the field looking good. If it doesn't come out looking like golf course, that's ok. In the long haul, I know the grasses will eventually fill in and take over. You guys would love the layout. The little field (about 2 acres) sits at the base of a steep hardwoods hill. The south and west side are a swampy tangle of brush and vines with some of that multi-flora rose (that's not real good news for anyone who wants to walk into there), the north side is a skinny patch of Norway spruce that I planted 30 years ago. The field is quite well sealed off and isolated from the house grounds and all the accompanying activity. When it is finally all planted, the deer are going to love it, and there there are ground-blind sites all the way around it. Of course it would have been a lot nicer if the pond had worked out...lol. Doc

Re: If you could pick only one.. If it were free, I would look through all the price tags and pick the most expensive one and then sell it on ebay. Then I would continue shooting and hunting with my Mathews MQ-32. It's all set up just the way I want it, killing deer, and shooting just fine. Doc

Re: ny bowhunters(NYB) I went to the Rochester show on Friday and didn't see any NYB reps there. I might have missed them, but I don't think so. Sounds like a missed recruitment opportunity. Doc

Re: CWD Statistics So, how did they administer the cure for screw worm to every deer in the state? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I sure would be interested in finding out how they got all those deer to line up for their innoculations. It sounds like a project on the par with the anti-hunters idea of applying contraception to control deer populations. Just curious. How did they do that? Doc

Re: Frost Seeding Whatever I do, it had better be done before that ground dries out and hardens or it's going to take a jack-hammer to get a seed to penetrate the ground. Like I said, when he filled in that pond, he exposed a whole lot of clay. Clay will move around pretty good due to frost and the early rains, but once it gets a chance to dry out, those seeds had better be germinated and sprouted or I'm pretty sure that they will never penetrate that stuff. Further, once it is hardened up, I'm quite sure that nothing short of a disc and then a drag will ever produce a viable seed bed. I spent weeks last fall picking rocks off this field and had a chance to get a good face-toface look, up close and personal, at every square foot of that field and already it was starting to cement up pretty good. There is so much sub-soil quality clay in that field that it runs the risk of becoming a huge piece of pottery...lol. Right now it is a muddy slurry that will put 20 pounds of sticky mud on your boots before you get 10 feet out into the field. I suspect that a few months from now it will be more like a paved parking lot. I'm just hoping that if I ever do get a good seeding started that it will be able to survive. I think that once I get some sod established, the retained moisture and the root system itself will keep the dirt loosened up enough for survival. I sure hope so. One thing I'll guarantee though is that even if the grass doesn't grow, all kind of weeds and brush won't have any problems there .... lol. Doc

Re: CWD Statistics I think that currently they are spending more resources on counting instances, tracking its progress and learning more about how it is spread than they are looking for a cure. First things first. Actually, I wouldn't really expect a cure. I'm not sure I have ever heard of a disease in wild animals that was ever eradicated or even seriously effected by some man-made cure. Plus I think that the number of people across the continent that are really all that concerned do not represent a big enough base of support to fully fund any kind of emergency all-out effort on the research required to find and administer a cure. Let's face it, in terms of priority, CWD sits pretty low on the list in the minds of most average citizens. Not only that, but there are some interests who are actually applauding anything that would lower the deer numbers. Doc

Re: Frost Seeding Actually, what happened is that I had a pond put in about 3 years ago, down at one end of my property. The pond failed and wouldn't hold water so as per the guarantee by the pond builder, he filled it back in for free. This had always been an area that I kept mowed just to keep it from going back to brush. It was only wild grasses, but the deer always seemed to use it, so I guess it could be called a food plot. My intention is to re-seed it with regular cheap grass seed and resume mowing it again once I get something started. I do not have a lot of specialized seeding equipment, and getting the seed under the surface could require a bit more hand-raking than is really practical. Plus I suspect that once the ground dries out a bit, it may be quite hard because with all the stirring of the ground with the pond, there is a lot of sub-soil (predominantly clay) that is now where I have to plant. So I thought I could use the natural heaving of the ground during the frost/thaw cycle of the spring. At least that is the theory from what little I have been able to find out about this technique. You guys have me a bit concerned now and perhaps I will back off a bit on this method and try to do it in a more traditional fashion. The problem is that it is a large area and I have zero for ground working implements. Also, there are no farmers in the area that I could hire to get the ground worked up into a looser condition, or I would consider doing that. Well, I'll figure something out. Thanks for all the great advice. Perhaps you have all saved me from making a costly mistake. Doc

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