Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] if you're after the meat, then wouldn't it make more sense to shoot a bigger deer.......more meat? With the AR you'll have the bigger deer and hence more meat [/ QUOTE ] One thing that everyone seems to be assuming is that everyone has the luxury of picking and choosing. It's very nice to suggest that hunters should let all the bucks walk by until the right one comes along, but it is a fact that there are some areas, perhaps many here in NY, where one deer within shooting distance may be all you see during the season. Doc

Re: The new NY blaze orange bill How many times have I read posts complaining about trespassing hunters on this forum alone? Private land is no guarantee. Also, with rifles now being added into the NY equation in some areas, hunters on adjoining proerties can now enter the picture without setting one foot on your property. Doc Doc

Re: Killing a coyote with your bare hands My personal technique is one that I have used many times. I generally find a strong branch that is overhanging a trail that coyotes use all the time (bait can be used) and wait for one to come along. Then I drop down on its back, wrapping my arms around it's chest, digging in with my fingernails and then delivering the fatal spine-crunching bite at the back of its neck. This generally works best if you give out a little growl. It's a bit more intimidating that way. It's very much like the technique that I use for harvesting all of my bucks. I call it my "bite and wrestle" technique. You guys believe me don't you? Honest, that's how it's done. I perfected it myself. Doc

Re: Pet Peeve Well, I suppose some of the young pups that run the marketing end of these companies probably don't even know that they are not being original. Or maybe they just ran a million dollar study and it turns out that those particular names cause people to fly completely out of control and buy the product even when they don't want it .... lol. I don't know, but it seems to me that I saw a car name being re-used not too long ago. Hey, they're just running out of names. But, I'll bet I could help them out. Gee, what would be wrong with "The Twanger"? How about "The Slug", or maybe for those that like animal names, "The Possum"? .... "The Bat"? ... "The Goose"? Or for those that like powerful weather events, how about the "Twister"? No, that might be construed as saying something about the limbs. Maybe I'd better just leave the bow model naming to the experts .... eh? Doc

Re: Dick\'s Sporting Goods Dick's is a retail sporting goods store. That includes hunting, fishing, golfing, basketball shorts and running shoes and any other of the thousands of items that can be considered "sporting goods". Why would anyone expect their people to be expert archery pros? They have racks of stuff just like walmart and any other store that sells a variety of stuff. If you like the price, buy it. If you need someone to work on it, take a trip to your local pro-shop. I don't think I have ever heard them advertise that their salespeople are subject matter experts. They know just enough to answer a few very basic questions and tell you if it is in stock or not. Heck, the guy in the archery department may have just stepped over from selling hockey skates or golf balls. What do you expect from these people? Doc

Is that the only stand that you have any confidence in? No other choices? I think I would get away from that area unless that is the only "good spot" that you have. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] That's already happening without AR's so put them in place now and in the next few years when bigger deer are being shot in larger numbers, they'll come back to it. [/ QUOTE ] I'm thinking that once hunters are lost to the sport, very few will ever come back. Sure it happens, but there is so much social pressure now against hunting that to add one more reason for hunters to leave the sport is probably not all that great an idea. As far as test areas, I think that really isn't such a bad idea. Sure the results can be somewhat tainted by illegal activity, however, to what degree is certainly the question. I believe that some valid data could still be achieved through test areas. However, chances are that a test area would not give you an accurate idea of the impact on the hunter numbers unless you picked out the very worst areas in the state. That being an area that has had the antlerless permits removed or severely reduced because of low deer density and an area where the hunting pressure is traditionally relatively high. Let's see just what hunter reaction is to a situation where doe harvests are not an option and 95% or whatever of the bucks they see are illegal to shoot. Run that test for a couple of years and see how many hunters completely give up hunting or start hunting someplace where the AR is not in effect. How do you get that piece of information? ..... Don't know. Perhaps through random area surveys. If a test like that was run and it showed no impact on hunter numbers, it certainly would make a lot of my concerns go away. Doc

Re: The new NY blaze orange bill [ QUOTE ] i think the bill should include everyone int he woods during gun season. although it should be common sence to wear it ! [/ QUOTE ] That would be quite a tricky law to write. Exactly how do we define "in the woods"? Would that include someones back yard that happenes to be a treed lot? How about that little chunk of brush around the stonepile in the middle of a farmer's field? Maybe the city park? No, unfortunately there are limits as to what we can actually do with non-hunters. No, we can't dictate to people what they can wear in their backyard, and I don't think we really want to. Imagine the legal mumbo-jumbo that would have to be used to define areas of hunting hazards. I'm sure nobody would even understand such a law. It is a lot easier, realistic and practical to write the law for those actively engaged in hunting. Plus, writing the law in that fashion covers 99.99% of the real potential hazards. I think there is a far cry from a hiker walking through the woods vs. a hunter dressed completely in camo intentionally trying to blend in with his surroundings. Actually, maybe somebody has, but I have never heard of a non-hunter being accidently shot via a hunting incident. I really don't think we are talking the same magnitude of potential here. However, I would not be entirely against an annual safety campaign that would remind non-hunters of the safety hazards of putting themselves in a position of danger by not wearing blaze orange in a spot where hunting was taking place if that would ease a few minds. I believe that is about as far as the law can realistically go when it comes to non-hunters. Doc

Re: The new NY blaze orange bill Actually, most non-hunters are scared out of their wits to even enter the woods during gun season. The fact is that I have never seen a hiker or anyone else who was not hunting, wandering around the woods. But what I have seen, and on more than a few occasions, is other hunters dressed completely in camo on the most active gun hunting days on a very heavily pressured state hunting area. I cannot imagine the insanity of someone who would do that, but I have actually seen these idiots out there. Perhaps they are trying to pull off "suicide by hunter", I don't know. Yes, I have fortunately spotted them before some unfortunate incident happened, probably just because of pure luck and the direction I happened to be approaching from. And yes, we are all supposed to scan the back-drop around any deer that we intend to shoot. But we have also seen the very effective Realtree ad on TV that asks "how many hunters do you see in this picture". That ad shows just how easy it is for a camoflaged hunter to completely blend in with his background. So, unless you confine your shots to an area that has all the brush cleared down to the ground and has a gravel backstop right behind the deer, I think you have to agree that even with a very safe shooter, camoflaged hunters could still be completely hidden behind the deer that you are about to shoot. And don't think that this idiot is only risking his own well-being by this stupid act. I'm sure that the shooter, regardless of how many precautions he takes would still live a life where that incident would visit him every day. And there is also the family and friends of this fool that have to live with the loss. So, it is not just the guy in camoflage who becomes the victim of something that could easily be prevented by blaze orange. If this new law will get those fools out of the woods or force them to dress in an appropriately safe method, then it has 100% of my support. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] I agree with alot of what you have to say Doc...however; doesn't most states have a "single" plan now anyways? [/ QUOTE ] Actually, with regards to buck quality and quantity, yes. I think they are so overwhelmed with the task of total population control that they have been forced to take a one-size-fits-all approach to buck management. However, for total population management, they have tried through the WMUs and antlerless permit allocation to use many different formulas to customize their over-all deer management to local conditions. And this activity centers mainly on the does. Judging by the, somewhat questionable results, I would have to say they have their plate more than full just doing this. But at least they are trying to manage the harvests according to more local conditions. Imagine if antlerless permit numbers were standardized to apply to the entire state .... the same number of permits regardless of WMU. Would that be appropriate? Now, if we agree that the doe herd needs different harvest requirements from location to location within the state, why on earth would anyone think that buck management should be standardized as a single plan across the state? Perhaps the current system of buck "non-management" has resulted in a one-size-fits-all approach for bucks, but that doesn't mean that the problem should be compounded by expanding on that mistake and replacing it with another one-size-fits-all plan. If we are going to try to fix a problem, let's at least be smart about it and do it the way we know is right. That is probably the best way to make sure we are not creating more and bigger problems than we are trying to fix. [ QUOTE ] It is hard to make a 1 plan fit all...then again...how much would it cost to make a plan for each and every spot in an entire state? [/ QUOTE ] And what is it going to cost if we don't at least try to match our management plans to the habitats, deer densities, harvest pressures, and the needs of the hunters that are so vital to any management plan? No, we can't break policy down to every acre, but at the very least we can use the WMUs that have already been set up. If that is as good as we can do, it is still better than not making any attempt at all. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] Doc,, I have actually 3-4 years without harvesting a deer,,, Kinda like this year... ,, but hey it's fun to get out there.... So not getting an anterless tag wouldn't bother me in the least, I've gone ZERO with that as well before.... [/ QUOTE ] Understand that you may or may not represent the majority or even a large percentage of deer hunters. We cannot sit around be-moaning the steady decline of hunters and then heap restrictions on them that in some cases could nearly guarantee that they are buying a license with little hope of a harvest ...... possibly for multiple years. My guess would be that if a large number of people were faced with 5 years (as in the original example) of no harvest or even a decent thought that they MIGHT get a deer, a significant percentage of those people would join those who have already deserted the sport. My viewpoint is: go ahead and try AR, but only in places where it has been carefully evaluated as to how it will impact hunter satisfaction and success. The part about AR that I find disturbing is that everyone wants to roll out the plan across the state without a care or concern as to what the negative impacts might be in certain areas. It's kind of a one-size-fits-all mentality in a state that is anything but homogeneous throughout in terms of deer density, habitat and hunter pressures. I'll go one step farther and say that any locations that implement AR should have annual reviews to ensure that they should be continued from one year to the next. In other words, AR should be tied to general deer population, and if it turns out that antlerless permits require severe cutting because of over-harvesting, extreme winter weather, or whatever, there should be a threshhold which when crossed causes automatic suspension of AR until the herd size is such that hunters are not unfairly denied reasonable possibility of a harvest of some sort. If no one has the time, resources or will to put at least that much effort and research into this idea of AR, then I would have to say that the whole program is probably not thought through well enough to implement as a state management policy. I know that we are all grasping wildly at anything that sounds like it may result in more mature deer, but let's not get so desparate that we start slamming in restrictions without a thought as to what negative consequences may arise. The hunter numbers are important, not only from a political standpoint, but also, they are the only viable tool that the DEC has for altering the deer numbers and implementing any QDM plans that anyone might entertain. Lets not be doing something in a slipshod fashion that runs a potential risk of further destroying that resource. Like anything else, there is a right way to do this and a wrong way. My opinion is that rolling out one single plan without proper evaluation based on local conditions and situations, across the entire state is wrong and also represents a reckless and careless approach to management. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] I could really care less if I harvest a buck for the next 5 years as long as the AR is working, but you first have to give it a chance..... So I'll be happy taking a Doe if a buck doesn't present itself,, HEY it's a deer either way to me. [/ QUOTE ] And, suppose you are in a WMU that is not giving out any permits, or where the chance of getting a permit is very slim, as it is in quite a few NY WMUs these days. Perhaps you might be relegated to shooting NO deer for the next 5 years. Actually, that would be a very real possibility in many areas of NY. I've got to believe that many people going 5 years or perhaps even less without any possibility or perhaps a very slim possibility of getting a deer would abandon the sport and take up some other recreation. Sometimes we have to look outside of our own particular unique circumstances to see some of the potential negative consequences of what we are proposing. Doc

Re: The new NY blaze orange bill Check out the December 16 issue of New York Outdoor News. They have a pretty good article on the new bill. It's not as detailed as I would like to see it, but may have some facts that you haven't seen yet. The article says that the bill would require blaze orange for "anyone carrying a rifle, shotgun, revolver or pistol in pursuit of deer or bear". Absent from that list is the bow. I hope that was an intentional omission and not just an over-sight or typo. From what I see of it, I am completely 100% behind this bill. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions By golly, it sounds like i may have a hero in the DEC. Finally someone who understands that NY is not just one blanket of common habitat and common hunting pressures. A voice of reason has finally entered the discussion. [ QUOTE ] Just read this morning that Jeremy Hurst the new DEC Coordinator of Deer Biologists is not in favor of a statewide AR plan. Quote Hurst , "It's difficult in a state like New York to implement one specific policy." [/ QUOTE ] Finally someone who is able to look all the way around both sides of these latest, one-size-fits-all, pop management fads. I have to really give him credit for being one of the few that recognizes that NYS is not just one nice consistant blanket of habitat and hunting pressures. Doc

Re: got my buck ...i thought *DELETED* That "big puddle of blood" makes me think your hit might have been a bit more lethal than you are thinking. It reminds me of an episode I encountered one bow season years ago. I shot at a buck and watched as the rear end of my arrow flipped from an obvious deflection off some unseen branch. I did see the arrow ricochet off at a real bad angle. The deer ran away and I sat on stand for another half hour. When I went out to pick up my arrow, I noticed blood and fat along the entire length of the shaft. I stood there in dis-belief because I was certain that I had watched a complete miss. That was when I caught some movement out of the corner of my eye, and there 15 yards away was the bucks head slowly bobbing up and then back down again. Now, if you want to see a comical chinese fire drill that was the place to watch it. I was in a complete, out of control, panic and my hurried attempt at a rather easy 15 yard shot missed badly. Unbelievably, the deer got to its feet and ran across the goldenrod field like a drunken sailor. It was flopping from side to side and occasionally rearing way up just to maintain its balance and over the rise, 50 yards away, he went . I went over to where he was laying and there was a big puddle of blood with a few big clots in it. Now, remember, a half hour had elapsed since I shot. I tracked that deer for another 150 yards before I found it. By the way the last 50 yards or better was without any blood at all. As it turned out, the arrow had indeed deflected badly and instead of hitting behind the shoulder, it had ricocheted through the throat cutting the jugular. I always thought that that kind of hit would result in a real quick death, but apparently not. So depending on the quantity and color of the blood, your hit may have been a similar wound. In my case it took 1/2 hour of bleeding out and 150 yards of tracking to find him. With only 15 minutes of waiting, as was your case, I wonder just how far he might have actually gotten before going down. But, if he was hit in a similar fashion to mine, it is for certain that he did eventually go down. It might be worth one more good intensive body scan of the area. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions I certainly have had my share of harsh words for the DEC, but I've got to admit that I would not want their job. When I think about the size of the tasks they are charged with and the fact that they are constantly faced with diminishing resources to do those tasks, I often wonder how it is that the results are not worse. Sometimes we get the feeling that they have hordes of biologists that just pour across the land and gather all the data required for complete and thorough management. Well, financial limitations do not allow that level of on-the-ground data-taking. So, the only tools left in that situation are statistical analysis techniques with a small supply of good, up-to-date data. That sort of thing would be great if the state was not so totally diverse in terms of habitat, and hunting pressure. Imagine trying to manage a herd that can be totally opposite in terms of density, on land that has totally opposing habitat, and hunter pressures from one property to the next. How would YOU do that? How about being charged with managing a herd on land that you really have no control over ....... how would YOU do that? How about if your duties were increased to include air and water purity, and chemical spills and passing judgement on wetlands variances and a miriad of other environmental activities that you had never been required to manage before. With each of these new tasks coming without proper funding, do you think you could still do your deer management thing to a degree that would keep everybody happy? Now imagine that while you are struggling to just merely keep deer numbers under control and somewhat balanced throughout every acre of the state, you had all kinds of business people whose livlihoods were being threatened by heavy numbers of deer, sniping at your heels, going over your head to legislators, and just generally making your life miserable. In other words, outsiders forcing you to take on all these outside concerns and people-issues that are not necessarily in keeping with your initial management plans. Now, here comes the hunters, fresh off their couch after watching their dose of Saturday morning hunting shows or just polishing off 14 straight hours of watching all those hunting videos that they got for Christmas. Their heads are all charged up with visions of huge racked bucks, and they are now demanding that the already threadbare DEC manage the state just like those professional, pay-to-hunt deer farms that produce 95% of the trophy animals in those TV shows and videos. They want them to compete with commercial game farms that have complete control of every animal and hunter on the property as well as the ability to manage gene pools and diet of the animals and all the other activities required to grow those freakish racked deer that we all want. The only thing is, they want them to do this across an entire state where they have absolutely none of the controls and resources available to these commercial hunting ranches. Oh, and by the way, add in the threat that their only control tool, the hunters, are declining at an alarming rate, if you want to see some real panicky, knee-jerk decisions being made. I'm thinking they have their plate, not only full, but overflowing already, and it's almost to the point where some pretty disastrous mistakes could be made. We're already seeing some of that already. If I have any real complaints, it is that the DEC is not forthcoming with the fact that they are overwhelmed. All statements coming from the DEC indicates that all is well and that they have everything under control. Unfortunately, this is where all the unrealistic expectations come from. I realize that this is also where the politics comes in, and bad news usually costs people their jobs. But nothing will ever improve until they first admit that they need help and that the job is not getting done, and why. I don't know whether I have stated the DEC's case accurately or included the whole story. I am not really in a position to do that I suppose. But sitting here as one hunter watching the results of all this, this is the opinion is that I have developed. And, that's all it is..... an opinion. Doc

Re: .22 or .17 i need advice quick I haven't heard the 22 Hornet mentioned yet. Anyone have any experience with that particular rifle? I have one, and it seems to have a fair bit of power. But I just haven't had a real good opportunity to thoroughly check it out. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions If you read a lot of the comments on forums like this one and check out the DEC's significant cuts in permit issuance from 2004 to 2005, and listen to the statements of the DEC themselves, it is obvious that all is not well throughout the southern tier. Actually from the cuts in the permits, it can be seen exactly what WMU's the DEC thinks need some herd re-building. It should also be remembered that the DEC's reactions on a WMU by WMU basis does not necessarily reflect conditions of all localities within those WMUs. Our WMU has completely opposite deer densities within 12 miles. Those are 2 different hunting areas that I am familiar with. Who knows how the conditions vary even between those two localities. That is one of the dangers of coming up with widespread conclusions, recommendations and proposals based simply on the observations of one's own personal hunting grounds. People in my area would view AR one way and people 12 miles down the road would see it an entirely different way. That was the only point of my response was to indicate that trying to come up with conclusions about any statewide program (Taken in the context of this AR thread), based on local observations is an inappropriate and perhaps dangerous thing to do. I suspect that only the DEC has the resources to make those conclusions, and they are going to be hard-pressed to figure it all out even with all their resources. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions [ QUOTE ] I just don't know of places in the southern part of the state that are hurting for deer. [/ QUOTE ] You are probably right, you DON'T know about those places, and understandably so. Because I'm sure you have not hunted the entire southern zone or even a significant portion of it. If you get a chance to look at the permit quotas for the southern zone in a comparison chart of this year vs. last year (I believe it is on the DEC website), you will see that the DEC figures that there are a substantial number of WMUs that need herd re-building. That is born out by the heavily reduced permit numbers this year in a lot of those areas. Also, anyone who thinks that the southern zone is just one big homogenous area of common habitat and deer densities is sadly mistaken. If you were somehow able to hunt an entire county and even had a staff of biologists to comb every inch of that county, you still would have no clue about conditions in the very next adjoining township, let alone the entire southern zone. Even within a single WMU, habitats and deer densities as well as hunting pressures can have very little resemblance from one township to the next. There are also pretty good clues on some of these forums that there are quite a few areas that have some pretty crappy deer hunting this year, last year and in some cases the year before that. I actually respect the opinions of those who describe conditions of deer scarcity. Actually, I have no basis to argue with them about it. They are the ones who are walking the ground in their hunting areas, not me. Also, I suspect that they are just as capable of judging the deer densities in their hunting areas as I am for my hunting lands. So, we should use great care when making sweeping statement about ALL of the southern zone. Heck, I wouldn't even try to make statements about conditions and situations in the next township or for that matter, anywhere where I haven't actually spent considerable time hunting and scouting .... lol. Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions GW- You have illustrated my point exactly. There are areas across the state that have very low populations. Yours may be extreme, but reports that I have heard indicate that there are other areas (perhaps many other areas) that are nearly as bad in terms of super-low deer density. The past couple of years and perhaps a few off in the future have had these kinds of mixed results across the state. So, when people are struggling to even harvest a doe, how can you ask them to pass the only deer they may see during that season? Further, how can you ask them to do this year after year? How long will they continue to hunt when they are basically told that they will likely be required not to shoot? Is there any way that this could NOT have an effect on the declining hunter population? Yes, there probably are locations where AR could be implemented without any negative effects. Those areas would have to be very closely studied and selectively deemed suitable for AR. Also, that decision would have to be an evergreen one so that it could be suspended during times of over-harvest. But this idea of one size fits all, that advocates complete statewide roll-out of AR, is one that is very short-sighted indeed, and I really hope that the DEC doesn't fall for it. Doc

Re: .22 or .17 i need advice quick [ QUOTE ] This is posted in the wrong room. Might want to post it in the Varmint room. [/ QUOTE ] No, actually this is the right room. Now follow me on this. A coyote is a varmint that derives some of its diet from the deer herd. So in the interest of predator control as it relates to the deer herd management and which also impacts deer hunting as a result, discussions on weapons of control on this deer predator is a proper topic for "deer hunting" ......................................................... You don't buy that? ......................... Can't sell that line of reasoning here? .......................... Oh well, it was worth a try. Doc

Re: .22 or .17 i need advice quick Are those your only two choices? How about a .222 or .22 hornet, or any of the other neat choices of varmint rifles? Doc

Re: Fellow NY\'s - Do you favor antler restrictions *DELETED* Post deleted by vtbowhunter

Re: Best NY deer magazine?? Even the NY DEC needs to have their feet held to the fire occasionally. Actually, I haven't noticed any over-whelming anti-DEC editorial bias. Perhaps some of the letters to the editor get a bit carried away at times, but the articles that I've seen so far don't really pan the DEC all that much. Actually, since a lot of their material comes from DEC sources, it would be a bit unwise to be bad-mouthing them. Doc

Re: NY hunters What a crazy season! I got a pretty decent 9-point in bow season, but only saw about 4 deer throughout both bow and gun season. Shooting was light during gun season even though the state parking lots had more cars than usual. Doc