Doc

Re: New York State antler restrictions??? [ QUOTE ] As for the number of hunters dropping. I don;t really care!!! The less hunters out their the more deer Iand other fellow hunters can shoot. [/ QUOTE ] This statement is far too short sighted. Hunting has become a political football which has only been saved or enhanced due to the advantage of having a significant voting block that politicians cannot ignore. The continued decline in hunters may not result in much change in our lifetime (emphasize MAY), however it is much to selfish an attitude to not care about the future and health of the sport for our descendants. Anyone who thinks that hunting can survive without a healthy number of participants is just not living in reality. Understand that there are all kinds of people making it their sworn duty to get rid of hunting. Also understand that every year there are increasing competitors for land use that do not necessarily correlate to what we hunters would like to see. Also, understand that the DEC continues to get weaker and weaker as other businesses and political forces continue to grow. Their ability and willingness to continue to champion hunter interests or even wildlife interests as opposed to all the new competing non-hunting interests that they are now charged to represent, is a direct result of the number of hunters they represent. There is also the issue of DEC funding which is largely due to hunter expenditures. We are asking them to go off on all these new grand experiments and now we are telling them that we don't care if their resources continue to decline because of the decline of hunting participants? How serious can any of our complaints or suggestions be taken if we don't even care that that the sport is showing significant signs of dying out? I am also curious as to how all these does will get shot that you want to harvest if the hunter population continues its decline. Apparently there are indeed areas of underharvest around the state. If these areas cannot handle adequate harvests with the hunters they have, how will fewer hunters help those situations? Yes, in the short term, hunting less pressured land would be kind of pleasant indeed. And if I was only concerned with my lifetime, such a shortage of hunters might be welcome. But, if any of us give a darn about what we leave future generations of hunters, we had better start thinking about how our actions impact the hunter population and what the consequences of a diminishing hunter population means to the sport itself. [ QUOTE ] NY has to increase the number of doe tags. [/ QUOTE ] This is a statement that could only be made by someone who has experienced hunting every acre of every WMU across the state. Experience on one area of one WMU does not validate any such conclusion for the entire state. The fact is that you cannot even speak for your entire WMU. This is one of the problems with a lot of the conclusions that show up on this thread. Everyone is assuming that what they see on their own little hunting area applies to every hunting area across the state. Believe me ..... There is no one here that has that kind of insight on the herd and habitat across the entire state, or even a single WMU. Personally, I have to believe a significant percentage of those hunters that have been reporting deer scarcities, and I have to believe that there are a significant number of places where deer overharvest has taken place. And, I will not engage in the kind of arrogance that says that these people aren't seeing deer because they don't know how to hunt as well as I do, like I have seen on some of the replies. Those telling us that they are seeing shortages are the people who have walked the ground, not me. That particular kind of statement really gets me going because there are all kinds of people proposing all these wonderful things for all of NYS without really having a clue as to how it interplays with the realities of each area. That's like me trying to suggest to Florida how to manage their deer herd without having any of the facts about that state, its herd or its habitat. You must agree that that would be pretty silly. [ QUOTE ] What bothers me most about our DEC, is that this year they started a pilot program in a couple of units, to see how QDM will work. They are so arrogant that they can't even research other states to see how it works. They have to see for themselves. [/ QUOTE ] I think you are ASSUMING that they are not researching other states. I think you are also assuming that a decent level of research from other states exists. I also think you are assuming that what works in one state or one set of habitat conditions is automatically transferrable to another state or set of habitats. You are also assuming that hunter attitudes are the same from one state to another. You are also assuming that other states are not encountering some problems with their implementations. Personally, I am happy that the state has taken this cautious, go-slow attitude. It shows that they are at least trying to do something right. Let's not be too fast to condemn them for screwing some things up and then turning around and condemn them for trying to do something in the right way without the mistakes of rushing in and flailing away at the latest management fad. Doc

Re: New York State antler restrictions??? [ QUOTE ] I am in agreement with Ranger in the fact that if NY state does go with an AR that the doe permits will have to be more avaliable to a meat hunter. [/ QUOTE ] Now, there is the crux of my whole disagreement with just arbitrarily rolling out AR across the entire state. As I understand it, QDM is about a whole lot more than just adjusting antlerless permits to satisfy hunters. It also involves balancing herds with the carrying capacity of local habitats. To be forced to increase doe permits soley because meat hunters need to have something to shoot at when antler restrictions are implemented, completely ignores the current populations and the habitat potentials. That's not management. For example, the DEC has already admitted that there are quite a few areas that have mild to severe population shortages. To go into these areas and increase antlerless permits simply because AR has caused a shortage of legitimate bucks would fall far short of anything I could call "quality management". Another thing that seems to escape people is that bucks come from does. If an already weakened deer herd is further decimated by increased permits, where do you suppose the bucks (mature or otherwise) are going to come from. Let's face it, there are areas that can support AR and there others that cannot. It is also true that the propriety of AR may change from year to year depending on herd size. Is an permanent AR rule across the state going to address that? We watch TV and see all these monster deer being harvested on these carefully controlled commercial ranches and somehow envision that a government agency can pull that off on a statewide level. Well, I got to say that those boys have got a whole lot more control of their herd and who shoots what and how many, and what the habitat consists of, and how much of what super-charged deer feed will be fed, than NY will ever come close to having. Listen to PA posts about herd reduction and AR and you will see both extremes of people who are happy with it and people who are on the verge of violence with their frustration. These kinds of spotty results don't surprise me a whole lot. One size does NOT fit all. It's time to realize that when a state puts in such restrictions, careful annual study has to be applied to ensure that that decision is proper for each WMU each year. Without putting in this kind of cautious planning and study, we may find AR being put into areas where it is completely inappropriate. We may also watch our hunter numbers continue to decline as a result of it. Don't let the stars of these TV shows cloud your judgement. An occasional shot of reality can sometimes save making some pretty poor decisions. Doc

Re: New York hunting age I have a question about what kind of rules are we envisioning when we propose a minimum legal age. Are we talking about parental supervision? Are we talking about adult supervision (If so what age is the adult)? What exactly does the "supervision" entail? Does that mean that the parent/adult needs to be within touching distance, voice distance, sight, or just somewhere on the property, or just that the parent/adult knows where the child is hunting, or just knows that the child is out hunting somewhere? I have seen current adult supervision practiced using all of the above as criteria. So, legally, what does supervision actually entail? That certainly would make a big difference to my answer to the original message. Doc

Re: New York State antler restrictions??? I think Shawn has a good point about limited time afield. I also think there are a lot of other hunters in the same boat, maybe even most of them. So what happens when you start tinkering with their ability to have a satisfactory hunt by telling them that possibly all the bucks that they get to see, will be illegal to shoot? While we are watching the hunter population dwindle, is this really a good time to be limiting their ability to harvest a deer that they would normally be completely content with just so those of us with nearly unlimited time can have more larger racked bucks? In fact, legality aside, I believe it is contrary to hunter interest to belittle the achievements of those who harvest small bucks. Given their circumstances, that buck may represent a heck of an accomplishment, and this constant drumbeat about there being something wrong with a hunter who harvests such an animal, can only serve to drive more hunters out of the sport. In fact, particularly this year and last year, we have had a significant number of areas that are reporting extreme low deer populations with few deer of EITHER sex being seen. It is very possible that that little fork-horn might be the only deer some see all season. Is it right that we tell them that they must go scoreless because we want to experiment with bigger racks? One thing we had better recognize is that what we see in our own backyard is not necessarily the conditions across the state. What may be a good idea for some areas, may not be a very realistic thing for all areas. We had also better take a long look at what the negative outcomes of some of the wonderful ideas may be. That is why discussions of this type are so important. It allows us to think of all consequenses of actions that, on the surface, may seem like no-brainers. This is a good thread and I would like to see a lot more New Yorkers commenting on this topic. Doc Doc

Re: New York State antler restrictions??? Playing devil's advocate for a minute, I am wondering about the potential effects of AR vs. what I consider to be the most endangering factor in hunting's future ....... lack of hunting access. One might think that as we continue to heap more and more restrictions on exactly what KIND of buck that can legally be harvested, landowner/hunters are going to get more and more possessive of the fewer legally eligible bucks on their property. Quite possibly the effect could be like a "reduced deer herd situation" where landowners begin to lock up their property to protect the only legal buck on their property that they will be eligible to shoot. Perhaps this is one of those "unintended consequences" that have been rolling around in my head ever since I heard of the idea of AR and other super-restrictive QDM type laws. It's kind of a subtle effect that wouldn't be obvious until after the damage is done. Just a little something to think about before we all just go off blindly following the latest management fad. Doc

Re: Good luck NY! [ QUOTE ] Oh yeah, and stay safe! Wear your orange [/ QUOTE ] Yup, I saw another one of them jerks dressed completely in camo with face paint on as well. This was on heavily used state land. It's hard to believe that there are still ignorant people that love to tempt fate in such an irresponsible way. Sorry, but this is just one of my hot-buttons. I have little tolerance for people of that mentality. Heaven help him if a deer runs between him and another hunter. The guy just will never be seen ...... except perhaps in some glaring newspaper headline. Doc

Re: NY gun opener So, how did the Saturday opener effect hunter numbers in your area? Were there gobs and gobs of additional hunters out there because of the weekend opener? Here in my little chunk of 8N, there definitely was a significantly higher number of hunters. I got to check out a couple of local state land parking lots and there were more cars than I have seen in at least a decade. However, this didn't translate into more shooting. It was downright quiet, especially when you consider that most of those hunters had two permits. I'm sure in the WMUs where permits were significantly cut, you all probably didn't see that many extra hunters due to the weekend opener. My guess would be that the quantity of permits probably trumps the Saturday opener in terms of hunter participation. However that's just a guess. How about you guys that actually hunt in those areas ..... What do you think? What did you see? Doc

Re: any one get any thing in newyork opener It would be interesting if you guys would include your WMU or some other location info when you report your observations. It's hard to relate to what your seeing when there's no idea what corner of the state you're talking about. Just a suggestion. Doc

We have a lot of heavy pressured hunting areas around here, and deer patterns are absolutely destroyed with the woods stinking of hunters. However, with enough years of experience on a hunting area, you will find escape routes that are used by the deer when the hunters all start infiltrating the woods. Also, pre-hunt scouting may tip you off as to where the deer are most likely to be on opening morning. Prior experience will tell you what direction they are most likely to go. So basically you are patterning the hunters so that you know where they will park, what easy trails they will use, and what the deer are likely to do when they get pushed. Here in the northeast, that strategy works pretty well. However, Florida has completely different terrain and conditions, so those tactics may not work well for you. Doc

Re: Need help!! Shot deer and back legs kicked high? Doesn't that normally indicate a heart shot? Or is that just with a gun? Doc

Re: Do you dummies wear orange? What did I miss that pertains to my reply? My attitude is still the same. Anyone who would not wear blaze orange when not legally required contributes to the blame for the incident and certainly is not showing a whole lot of intelligence since he is likely to come out the big loser in such an episode. It's kind of like the guy who approaches an intersection and sees that the other guy is ignoring a stop sign, but continues through the intersection anyway because he knows he is legally right. As they say ...... He was right .....DEAD right! Doc

Re: Do you dummies wear orange? [ QUOTE ] If it wasn't manditory I wouldn't wear it at all. Everyone should be positive IDing their tragets before they shoot, if they don't then they're idiots. [/ QUOTE ] Yep! They're idiots, and you could be dead (or worse) for not wearing blaze orange. Kind of makes you wonder just who is the idiot in that situation. Doc

Re: HELP Hunting terrain has changed The bad news is that all of the past hunting experience and learning are out the window. You are basically starting over. Also, depending on how recent all this change came about, it may take a while for the deer to re-develop patterns and for trails to become established. We had a similar deal with a massive ice storm that caused me to practically throw 30 years worth of experience and 20 years worth of log book entries right out the window. Yes, these kinds of changes eventually turn out to be a benefit to the herd and the hunting, but I wouldn't look for any immediate benefits. Doc

Re: Outsmarting a Smart Ole Doe One of the most under-rated big-game animals in North America is the whitetail doe. She has just spent a good chunk of the past year towing around 1 or 2 dummy fawns that try to get her into every dangerous situation that they can, and she has learned real quick to expect danger from just about every direction. You also won't see her wandering around leaving her calling card (scrapes and rubs) everywhere she goes. She doesn't go through that stupid stage of rut where she is on her feet wandering all over the country-side with a single minded purpose that has absolutely nothing to do with self-preservation. I have always maintained that if does were as scarce as bucks, the bucks would be the easier prey by far. Doc

Last time I looked, the Hindsight or some version like it was selling for some ridiculously stupid price that just made me keep right on walking. As much as I believe in the concept and really would like to try one out, I just simply said enough is enough. Maybe someday I might go looking for a used one to try out. Until then, I'll just bet I can get along with my cheap-o peep sight just fine. Doc

Re: can any body tell me Don't be bad-mouthing that crappy Bear Whitetail Hunter. I'd hate to tell you just how many deer both my brother-in-law and I have both taken with our crappy ol' Bear whitetail hunter compounds back in the early days before we got all sophisticated and bought all these squirrelly super duper fast (and expensive) bows and all the gadgets and go-fasters to go with them. That old clunky bow was a real workhorse and could take a beating and still take down a deer just as reliably as my Mathews MQ-32 does today. It just didn't look as pretty doing it. Heck you could use those old epoxy limbs for a wrecking bar in the miday and then go out and shoot a dandy buck in the afternoon. I finally sold mine when I got all sophisticated and elite about my equipment, but I'll just bet (30 years later) that somebody is probably still using that clunker today and probably still killing deer with it too. One thing I have learned over the years is to put the emphasis on the proper use of whatever equipment you've got first. Then you can start worrying about all the advertisements and hype as your wallet gets a bit thicker and you can afford to throw money away more freely. Doc

Re: What do you consider a trophy ? I think my definition of a trophy still consists of the traditional requirement of big antlers. Probably defined by something I would like to get mounted to hang on the wall. Trophies are for others to look at and get all impressed over. What is more important to me is which animals represent the biggest challenge and successful use of real hunting skills and woodlore. Those may or may not actually be the ones that make it to my wall. I tend to separate out trophy status from success and acheivement. To me success, satisfaction, pride and acheivement have nothing to do with what is displayed on my wall. Some of my most satisfying hunts have involved harvesting some deer that would leave other people completely unimpressed. It's also true that some of my biggest deer had less to do with skill, scouting and hunting prowess than just plain ol' good luck. So while some deer may actually be displayed as a trophy, there are many more that actually bring back memories of presenting the greatest challenges and feelings of accomplishment. Doc

Re: southern tier NY? Just a bit of a spellin clarification that may help someone find these places on a map: Honeyoe is actually spelled Honeoye, and Canedegua is actually spelled Canandaigua Not trying to be nit-picky, but if someone unfamiliar with the area is trying to locate these places on a map, they will have better luck if the spelling is corrected. Doc

Re: My Neighbor [ QUOTE ] Do atvs scare the deer [/ QUOTE ] I have a 400 yard wide parcel that is almost a mile long that shares a boundary with the state land, and I often will use my ATV to get to the top of the hill. That's where I park it and start hoofing it off to my various stands. It's a pretty steep hill and it is a quick and convenient way to get to the top where I start hunting about 600+ acres of state land. The experiences that I have had with deer vs. ATVs is that their reaction runs from just laying there watching me go by, to jumping up and running off a short distance and then watching me go by. That is the deer that I have actually seen. I'm sure there are a lot of others that I drive by without even knowing they are there. This is especially true of established trails where the deer have gotten used to seeing me go by. The one big exception is if I stop or get off. Then they take off like a ruptured duck. If they happen to be standing on or very close to the trail, and it looks like they are going to get run over, they generally run off out of sight. I suspect that in the deer's mind this probably represents pursuit. I'll bet they probably don't actually go very far though before they are calmed down again. Actually, the reactions that I have seen from spooked deer are a whole lot more frantic when I am on foot than when I am on an ATV. Doc

Re: My Neighbor [ QUOTE ] Sure I get a little frustrated that he's putt putting right through bedding areas and travel corridors that are probably hurting my chances [/ QUOTE ] This is the point that I missed. It wasn't all that clear that his activities were impacting your hunting success. I thought it was just a post complaining about his hunting strategies and his ignorance of hunting. Actually the guy's age has little to do with the situation. The effect would be the same if the guy was 30, and your options would be exactly the same. Actually, this is a problem that I am all too familiar with. I hunt primarily a chunk of public land that has in recent years become quite crowded and I have had to develop tolerance for quite a bit of interference in my hunts. Most of these interferences do not come from older people, but just from the fact that too many bowhunters are being squeezed onto too little acreage. With access to private land becoming all too rare around here, this has gotten to be a problem that has significantly impacted my ability to pattern deer or use any of my pre-season scouting and past experience in optimum ways that I used to in past years. Now that is a situation that I really don't have any solution to. All these other people have just as much right to hunt there as I do and their tactics are not really anything that I have, or should have, any say or control over. It's just the unfortunate way that hunting conditions have evolved in my area and there really is no fault or criticism to be assigned to anyone. It sounds like you have a much better situation than I do in that you are dealing with only one individual. There is a possibility that you might be able to influence the situation a bit to improve both your chances. The suggestion of a friendly, casual meet and discussion just might have some positive results. perhaps a bit of conversation about deer patterns and movements in your area might just get him to see that some of his ATV routes could be altered to avoid bedding areas and travel corridors. It's probably worth a try. Also, you never know, you just might find a good hunting partner who would be interested in cooperative efforts to increase both your chances. If that doesn't work out too well, then the only other option is to just grin and bear it as I have to do and try to cope as best as possible with the situation. Sorry if my first reply came off as being negative. I really completely mis-understood the post. Doc

Re: Quit because of a few misses? One other thing you might check is that your practice sessions are done with all of the same clothing that you hunt with. It is amazing how a little bit of clothing interference can really mess with arrow flight. Also, if you are hunting from a treestand, be sure to take at least a few practice shots from a treestand. Sometimes it makes an unexpected difference. These things may not be a problem for you, but they are just a couple more things that you may want to think about. Doc

Re: Do you dummies wear orange? In addition to some of the more heavy, serious and completely valid reasons for wearing blaze orange, I would also like to add that being extremely visible has helped keep people from inadvertantly dawdling around my stand or setting up within unsafe distances from my stand. There has been a lot of times when another hunter has seen me from quite a distance and either made a detour around me or picked up the pace to get by my area as quickly as possible. That's something that's greatly appreciated. There's nothing more frustrating than watching another hunter ****-footing right through my shooting lanes for a half an hour or so, or having someone set up within close range because he didn't know you were there. Doc

Re: My Neighbor So, what's the problem? The old guy gets out and hunts the best he can. How effective he is is up to him. If he does everything wrong and never gets another deer for the rest of his life, at least he is out there trying to extend his hunting years. Quite frankly, I seriously doubt that I will still be able to hunt when I hit my 70's. If I do, I will need all the help I can get, ATV's and all. As far as whether he has permission to hunt all the land he does, I guess I would assume that he does until proven otherwise. I think I am really missing the point here or there is something more to the story that I have not read yet. Given the same scenario, I can't really see why what he does would be any concern of mine. Doc

Re: Do you wear orange? We are never going to eliminate all potential accidents or hazards to our well being, in the woods or anywhere else. However, I am not going to go out of my way to set up a scenario for getting my face blown off by a shotgun. Not when a major component of safety in that area is so completely simple to do. Doc

Re: MISSED at 9 yards! Well, one thing is for sure .... you can't blame the traditional equipment for that one. I've done exactly the same thing, at only slightly longer yardage with a compound. Arrows are very unforgiving of any obstruction. However, you had action. You got a shot. You wound up with a good story instead of just telling about all the squirrels and chipminks you saw. The season's early, so I know you are going to get more opportunities. And when you do score, you will know you did it the hard way ...... the Barta way ...lol. Good luck on the next shot and keep us updated on your adventures with that bent stick. There's more than a few of us who are real interested in seeing you get a deer with that thing. That's REAL bowhunting! Doc