Doc

Re: NY and rifles allowed Every year, I have to go ream out some hunter that shoots at deer within the legally prescribed 500' distance of my house. In my opinion, 500' is not far enough away even with a shotgun. About every other year I read about slugs ripping through someone's house wall. Last year our local newspaper featured a huge picture focused in on a slug hole about head high in some family's livingroom wall. That really does wonders for hunting's PR. I'm thinking that since they are talking about allowing high powered rifles in more densely populated areas now, this might be the proper time to address this bogus, insufficient, 500' limit and increase it accordingly. We've worked pretty hard to take the hunting accident rate down to something that a lot of states envy (Do you all remember some of the ugly statistics that used to be posted after each season?). It sure would be a shame to do something stupid that would reverse that great trend. Fortunately, our area is not one of those chosen for this rifle change but who's to say this isn't some pilot that the DEC is planning to roll out across the state in a few years? Doc

Re: New York Public land It's going to be hard to find someone who can tell you the state of ALL of NY's public lands. I can only tell you that the chunk of state land that I hunt sucks. It has been over hunted. It is right smack dab in the middle of WMU 8N (Western NY) which the state tells us is one of the higher deer populated areas of the state, so there must be some spots in our WMU that have a lot of deer, but my piece of state land as well as the private lands around it are not one of them. In fact I have not heard anyone locally saying that they saw jillions of deer in 8N except for the DEC people. I'll bet that as bleak as the situation looks here, there is probably 1 or 2 pretty respectable bucks still around. That's what I keep telling myself anyway .... lol. I suspect that you are looking at the eastern side of NY, perhaps even the NE corner of the state. I don't have a clue what the situation is over there. Do you have a particular chunk of public land that you are looking at? Doc

Re: fear of portables I have a pretty heavy fear of hieghts that keeps me hunting from the ground. It's not that I can't get into a treestand anymore. It's just that I never really have a comfortable moment while I am up there. My thing is that I am hunting for enjoyment and not because my life depends on it. If I am not having a relaxing and comfortable time while I am hunting, then what in the heck am I doing it for. Besides, I have had quite exeptional luck with hunting from ground blinds and have not really found it to be that much of a handicap. Doc

Re: bait [ QUOTE ] I think baiting deer is cheating, so I do not do it and never will!!!!! Be better off shooting a deer in an elclosure!!!! [/ QUOTE ] Well, that may be putting it a bit strongly ..... lol. But, rightly or wrongly, I do feel a bit of this feeling myself. For me in my particular hunting location and conditions, it really feels like it should be unnecessary. That's probably the best way to put it ...... it seems to be unnecessary. I also think there is an element of selfishness that might be involved in the practice too. The reason I say that is that it would appear that the motive behind baiting is to entice deer from other areas to a particular spot and generally keep them in that vicinity. That means luring deer from other people's hunting area and into your own. Gee, that's not a very neighborly thing to do, is it? In general, it's not an issue that I get very heated up about. It is currently illegal here in NY and I suppose that if the issue were to come up, I would probably mildly campaign against it. The plain fact is that it's not likely to become an issue here. The DEC has come out completely against feeding deer (which is what baiting really is) and with the advent of CWD here I wouldn't expect that attitude to change soon. Doc

Re: Rut To me the rut is any change from the normal deer feeding and bedding periods that is the direct result of the buck's sex drive. I believe that in most cases that the initial signs of rut are very subtle and probably known only to the deer itself. Now I'll just bet that that isn't even close to the official biological definitions, and that is why I was curious. It's not information that I need to have, it's just another piece of info that I figured I should have in my quest to know as much about the whitetail as possible.....You might say, just another part of my deer hunter education. Doc

Well, I guess we are all experts on the rut ......... or are we? We all know that there are several phases to the rut, but do we know exactly what activities define the first rutting behavior? There always comes that time of year when a buck is getting restless and the first stirrings of the mating urge start to cause him to move in ways that are not typical of the rest of his patterns. When it first begins, he may not even know what it going on himself. So exactly when does his patterns begin to change? When does his movements actually begin to deviate from his normal feeding and bedding routine? In other words just how early do the first indications of rut really begin? Further, exactly what types of changes officially mark the beginning of rut? Is it the first scrape? Or is it the first time he starts breaking from normal patterns and actually starts showing some signs that he is interested in looking up some does to hang out with? Or is it actually defined by does and their reactions to the bucks? I know there is a lot of sexually based activity that occurs long before the actual successful breeding activity and some of this is lumped in with the term "rut". So, I guess my question is, what defines the rut for you? A secondary question is what is the official definition of rut (according to biologists), that is considered rut activity? Doc

What is the funniest practical joke that you have pulled on your hunting partners? Back in the late 80's, four of us went up to Canada to hunt for moose. We went about 40 miles back in on a little dirt road, loaded our canoes and a 10' motor boat into a lake and went to the end of that lake. We portaged about 150 yards into another lake and then went to the end of that lake to set up camp. We were back in there at a very remote location that none of us had been to ever before. It was a very dense, dark and almost scary place. I had packed one very special item in my sleeping bag. It was a small portable tape recorder/player. We used to have a dog that liked to play tug-of-war with an old sock and all the while she was doing this, she would be making the most vicious and scary growling noise you ever wanted to hear. I taped about 15 minutes of her growling noises and took the tape along with us. During the first night, I snuck the tape player out into the woods and turned it on. I had put about a 15 minute leader on the tape so that I could get back to the campfire and everyone would forget I was even out there. All of a sudden it started playing and the effect was perfect. There we were, all sitting around the fire in the middle of nowhere and all of a sudden this horrific and loud growling and snarling started up. There was a mad scramble for bows and knives and any other weapon that everybody could lay their hands on. Finally after a lot of panicked discussion, I announced that I would go out and slay this intruder. One other guy went with me and the other two trailed along (quite a ways back). Finally we completed the stalk of the tape recorder and I victoriously picked up the wild beast and declared, "I got it!". Well when they all saw what was going on, there was a lot of serious talk about throwing me in the lake. The guys still remember that trick and fortunately are still laughing at it. Any of you other guys ever pull a fast one on your hunting buddies? Doc

Re: Crop Damage Permits.... I have no real problem with "nuisance permits" as long as the land is open to hunters during the regular season. Certainly farmers and nurserymen have the right to protect their livelihood. However, I'm sure that there is occasionally a great deal of abuse in the system. Those farmers that seal off their property from hunters during the regular season and then cry hardship to get handfuls of permits, have very little of my sympathy. The granting of nuisance permits should be contingent on the landowners allowing some minimum amount of hunting by the general public during regular season. Doc

Re: Public Hunting Areas I remember back in my early hunting years that posted signs were a rare and peculiar thing to see. Now it is completely reversed. Unposted property is a rare and peculiar thing. This shift along with the population migration to the rural areas has forced a lot of hunters to use public land now. So, the pressure on these areas is greater than ever before experienced. And, the bad news is that it will never be any better. In fact, you can expect the pressure to get so bad that you will begin questioning if there is any hope in hunting there. No, the deer are not smarter, but they sure are a lot more educated. And also, it stands to reason that the average age of deer would be less than that of deer on less pressured private lands. There is also one other thing that is to be remembered. That is that any private land that is completely wide open to hunting, is not likely to be any different than public land. So, welcome to the new millenium. If you want to play, you have to pay. That's not true in all cases, but it is becoming the accepted norm now. It is a real shame, but it is all logical and explainable. We will also find that the prices for leases will continue to go up until the cost becomes prohibitive for most hunters. Today, it's a landowners market. People are willing to throw big dollars at the opportunity to have some good hunting land. More dense trophy animal population ..... more dollars required to hunt there. Many people have been completely sold on the idea that if your chances are slim as far as finding some monster buck, then it really isn't an activity worth doing. So, they will spend the big bucks required to hunt areas that have the big bucks. If you can work your attitude around to not defining successful hunting by the score of the rack, you can still have some very enjoyable hunting experiences on public land. If you MUST define success by rack score, you are likely going to have to come up with the cash unless you are related to, or very good friends of some landowners. By the way, there always seems to be a few very respectable animals that survive on public land. Sometimes it seems impossible, but those animals that don't get caught in the wrong place on opening day, get very educated, very fast. Given a bit of a warning, the mature animals will definitely know where to go and how to act to live on a few more years than the ones that get surprised on opening day. This is where it takes a bit more skill and determination on your part to harvest these animals. Well, as they say, that puts the hunt back in hunting. Are you up to the challenge? Doc

Re: Do you really enjoy those huntin shows???? I re-read my reply about what I would like to see on the TV hunting shows, and it occurred to me that perhaps I was getting just a bit heavy on the clinical or educational aspects of these shows. I would also like to add to that list of "wants" some things that add to the entertainment aspects. Humor is something that can add quite a bit to these shows also. I remember a segment in the video "Bowhunting October Whitetails" where Barry Wentzel had just missed a shot and was trying to deny that he had even taken a shot when the rest rest of his crew arrived on the scene. The whole bit cracked me up. I think it's always a good idea to try to squeeze a bit of humor into some of these shows. That is something that I do see occasionally, and that's good. There's nothing that says that these programs have to be all serious business. Doc

Re: Jumping the string [ QUOTE ] Prevent it??? Personally I Dont think thats possible. [/ QUOTE ] A bunch of years ago, my son and I did an experiment that showed that he could "jump the string". No, I didn't shoot at him. We set up a cardboard target on a slider wire that was attached to his belt while he was safely off to the side hidden behind a shed. He couldn't see the bow and could only react to the sound of the bow. At 20 yards, he was able to move the target an average of 12". Not bad for a human with human senses, reflexes and reactions. What do you suppose a deer could do? Doc

Re: Do you really enjoy those huntin shows???? [ QUOTE ] You know why you never see this Doc? Personally I think it's because you and I know just as much if not more than the "stars." [/ QUOTE ] That's probably true. I guess we would have to come up with a whole new line-up of "stars". Opportunities are there for people who really know their craft. If the current set of professional hunters were really interested in making a real good series of programs, I suppose they would have to go out and obtain some subject matter experts and use them as guests on their shows. Actually, all too rarely, I have seen a few half-hearted attempts on TV of some outdoor shows experimenting with this idea. Doc

Re: Do you really enjoy those huntin shows???? [ QUOTE ] I watch it for the tips and technique that they use to get this trophy game. [/ QUOTE ] What tips and techniques? That's my complaint .... they never show you anything that you have not already seen 500 times. Doc

Re: Do you really enjoy those huntin shows???? [ QUOTE ] Oh and I agree with Doc too. I cant remember the last time I watched one that taught me anything new or has shown me anything different then what I have seen 100000x already... But in all seriousnes how much more could there be anyways... LOL [/ QUOTE ] Ok, here are a few of the things that I would like to see during the hunting show time slots. Tracking- I know there are experts on tracking (not bloodtrailing). I'm not talking about nice steaming hot tracks in the mud that anyone can follow, but some of the tell-tale signs in leaves and other terrain that could be of great benefit to scouting and hunting trips. I would like to see a program devoted to identifying some of the more subtle signs and analysis of tracks left by animals. Also, some tips on what the various types of sign mean and the methods of aging the sign that we do see. In fact, any programs that feature woodlore, would fit very well with the Saturday morning hunting shows. I would also like to see something on how to set up a comfortable hunting camp in the wild. Tips on what to take that gives you the most benefit per pound etc. The variations on this theme could include everything from backpacking to cabin camps to horseback hunts to RV hunting camps. How about a program dedicated completely to blood-trailing. We don't always get that perfect shot that drops the animal in its tracks. Also, bloodtrailing is not just an eye test to see if you can follow the crimson trail. Wounded animals do some pretty tricky and strange things. There are certain things that tell you the condition of the animal. There are tricks used if the trail is finally lost. We all know a lot of this stuff, but few of us know ALL of this stuff. Plus an occasional review is never a waste of time. How many weeks worth of serialized programs could be used on the art of scouting? Here again we know a lot about scouting, but none of us know ALL about scouting. I'll bet there are a lot of methods of scouting and analysis of sign that most of us self-declared experts have never even thought of before. Programs on scouting would naturally lead into stand selection. For ground-standers, there is also the art of stand construction that is never discussed on any hunting programs, and yet there are many hunters who rely on ground stands. Features that ground stands should have, ways to make them look natural, and other considerations are things that would be useful. How about some tips on game treatment after the kill. Yes, that is a delicate subject for those with weak stomachs, but it is another topic that is never discussed on these shows. Couldn't we all use some advice on how to gain access to private land. There are some ways to make good first impressions, or approaches that work best for gaining permission. This is a subject that is becoming more and more important every year. How about some shows that detail planning out-of-state hunts. There's a lot of material there that you never see on TV. Another wildly popular topic that is completely ignored by the TV hunting programs is the state methods of deer management. Did you ever wonder where some of the numbers come from that are published by some of the state game management agencies? Why are these such a mystery? The states publish game population numbers ...... Where do these come from? Some of us know, but I'll bet most don't. There is so much information that could be passed on, and so much interest in it, that I can't imagine that the subject has not been even scratched yet. Well, the list goes on and on. It really isn't too hard to come up with hunting show ideas that the average hunter would be interested in. It certainly shows that there is absolutely no reason for these shows to be getting redundant and even boring. I'll bet every one of you could come up with hunting show themes that would be completely new. It really doesn't take a great imagination or a great deal of creativity, but it seems that none of the current hunting show producers have a clue how to break out of that same old tired format. Doc

Re: it\'s a free country [ QUOTE ] Some people responded by saying things like that brand sucks and mine is better. And then arguing disrespectfully about thier opinion. As long as it is posted in a manner that is respectful and based on personal experience it's ok. That's my take on it anyhow [/ QUOTE ] Well, that's a whole lot clearer than just issuing a ban on product bashing. I have seen products, both archery and otherwise, that had such poor quality, that they really needed bashing just to save others from wasting their money. What you are describing is really people bashing other people by not knowing how to respectfully and civily express their opinion. That makes a whole lot more sense, and should really be expanded beyond just product comments. I have seen a lot of this same sort of thing go on with a lot of other topics such as hunting methods and practices. Doc

Re: Do you really enjoy those huntin shows???? "Do you really enjoy those huntin shows????" Not as much as I once did. I have found myself getting half way through a lot of hunting shows until I finally realized that I had seen them before. Each show is a clone of all the rest. The only thing that changes is the deer being shot. When is the last time you ever saw something on these shows that surprised you, or something that you actually learned something from? I can go all the way back to Howard hill and Fred Bear videos and see exactly the same thing that I see on a video made yesterday. The producers of these shows have absolutely no imagination or creativity. The last video that I saw that was worth watching was back in the 70's or 80's. It was called Bowhunting October Whitetails, done by the Wentzel brothers. That was the last time that I saw anything that tried to show me something new and do a bit of instruction. As far as TV shows, I think they ought to ditch the 1/2 hour format and go for 1 hour programs. The themes ought to be more about the details of successful hunting. And the emphasis on monstrous deer should be downplayed in favor of showing better content in programming. There are few monstrous trophy deer taken on these shows that really impress me anymore. It's just a case of, "I've seen it all before .... MANY TIMES". As far as advertising, it must be understood that somebody has to pay the bills. However, when these things start looking more like infomercials than TV programming, I think that is going a bit over the edge. Also, like somebody has already mentioned, keep the advertising separate from the programming. These things seem to lose a lot of credibility when they start stirring the product hawking into the main part of the show. So, even though there are a lot of people who are extremely disappointed in these shows, apparently there are enough that are willing to put up with mediocre productions, to keep these guys in business. However, I just wonder what kind of real money they could make if they ever tried to make something professional that actually took into consideration making a show that the average guy could relate to and something that would not look like every other hunting show that we have seen. I'll just bet it would be worth the effort. Doc

Re: Listen to this story guys........... [ QUOTE ] This is another reason why I shoot traditional bows more often lately. [/ QUOTE ] Don't be dry-firing traditional equipment either. They are just as susceptible to damage from dry-firing as any other bow. Doc

Re: it\'s a free country Well, this may sound real stupid, but I'm afraid that I am a bit confused on the term "bashing" as opposed to someone just having a negative opinion on a product. I guess I must have missed the examples of bashing that led to this rule, so I am really quite confused. Am I to understand that there are to be no negative comments that indentify a particular brand of equipment.... Positive comments are ok, but if you have had negative experience with a product, you are to keep it to yourself? Or is there some particular quality about negative comments that is trying to be avoided? I really don't have any problem with such a rule on a privately owned website, but I just want to make sure that I understand the rules, exactly. Doc

Re: Crazy Deer?? Did you contact the local game authorities? They might have some interest in that incident. They might also have an interesting theory as to what caused such wierd behavior. Doc

Re: Jumping the string One thing that I have noticed is that big mature bucks seem to be considerably slower than the smaller, more nervous yearlings. I'm not sure whether it has to do with the additional mass that they have to get going, or just the fact that rut keeps them in a more worn out condition. It may also have to do with the fact that, to them, sounds might mean doe opportunities and perhaps the flight response is partially being over-ridden by curiosity. So, has anyone else noted this or is it just our older bucks that are a bunch of big old fat lazy slobs that can't get out of their own way .... lol. Doc

Re: Had it with the hype! I just got the latest "Sportman Guide" hunting catalog and have been having a great time laughing at some of the new inventions that they are trying to convince us that we just can't live without. I am now convinced that one of the factors in the recent spike in ATV sales is because that is probably what some hunters need to carry all those hunting gadgets around the woods. If you bought one of everything they sell, you wouldn't be able to pick up your bow...lol. I thought all the fishing equipment was getting way overboard, but hunting marketeers have left them way in the dust. Doc

Re: Disturbing Statistics I'll bet the numbers are somewhere out there, but good luck finding them. Doc

Re: Had it with the hype! Vtbowman- That's pretty radical, but I'm glad to hear that there is at least one bowhunter who is doing exactly what I wish I still had the strength to do. I absolutely envy those who are re-discovering that bowhunting is not about who can buy the most technologically advanced equipment. If I was a bit younger and was still physically able, I'd be joining you. Doc

Re: Disturbing Statistics Well, I can play the "personal observations" game too. But remember it has no official standing and only applies to my specific hunting area First of all it might be useful to explain that I have hunted, predominately within the same 1200 or so acres for most of my 61 years, so I have seen a lot more than just hunter population changes. Back in the early 70's, I can remember year after year, sitting about 3/4 of the way up the huge hill on the opposite side of the valley. We always would get up there before daylight and get all hunkered in for the opening day. From that vantage point, I could see about 3 miles of the state highway below. On opening morning, the highway looked like a long lighted snake with almost no breaks as hunters headed into the area for opening morning. For the last dozen or so years, that same view on opening morning has been a whole lot different. At times that 3 miles of visible highway would be completely empty for 5 minute spans or sometimes longer and then the cars that were coming through the valley were only 2 or 3 at a time. Does this mean that hunters are now taking a different route to their hunting grounds or that there are a whole lot fewer hunters. I really don't see any reason why they would be taking a different route. Observation no. 2: State parking lots that used to overflow onto the shoulders of the highway now have 7 or 8 cars parked in them on a good day. Observation no. 3: It used to be that later during opening morning you could track the path of a deer down through the woods just by the shots along the way. Early opening morning would just be a constant noise of one shot after another around the valley. Last year, I counted a dozen shots within the first 2 hours and then just a few shots later on. Pretty darn quiet. These changes have not been insignificant little trends. They have been quite radical, during the past decade or so. Now, a bit of a twist. Back in '65, when I first started bowhunting, My Dad, Brother-in-law and myself were about the only ones that were actively bowhunting in the entire valley. Seeing another bowhunter was something that never happened ....ever! It was sometime in the early '70's that I saw my first bowhunter that was not part of our little threesome. What a surprise. It was almost startling to see another hunter. Today, I am constantly running into treestands, wandering bowhunters stumbling through the area that I'm trying to hunt, or others using my ground blinds. There's hardly an area that will hold a track that doesn't have some recent bowhunter's footprint in it. Last year I shot a huge buck only to have the blood trail end with a gut pile. Someone intercepted the mortally wounded buck before I could even get to it. This is an area where hunter population has grown to such an extent that I am wondering if all the missing gunhunters have turned into bowhunters. No, that would be a bit of an exaggeration, but you get my point. So what does all this mean? Oh, probably not a whole lot in terms of what is going on nationally. But left only to my own personal observations, I would have to say that gun hunting has taken a severe dip in our area, and bowhunting is experiencing a boom right now. Without official statistics, I'm not real sure what the actual situation really is. That is why I have to rely on the articles and figures that are published by those that have the information. It's kind of silly not to. And to have a paranoid attitude that assumes that there are ulterior motives behind such statistics is really quite silly also. Doc

Re: Disturbing Statistics One thing that does NOT successfully refute these statistics is someone's personal observations. You talk about basing conclusions on insufficient data, personal observations epitomizes that. There are so many things that can impact a persons minute area of observations that such comments are fairly worthless. Doc