Doc

Re: Backstop for indoor range I remember a commercial indoor range/proshop that I used to shoot at that used layers of corrugated cardboard. The cardboard was arranged with the corrogations facing the shooter. Compression was supplied by some heavy excelsior bales sitting on top. It seemed to last forever and stopped the arrows well without causing problems with pulling them out. So, when I made my targets at home, I followed the same principle. Except I didn't need a whole wall of back-stop so I built a compression rig that used two 1/2" threaded rods to tighten up the corugated cardboard. I am still using the outdoor version now after 20+ years and with an annual tightening on the rods, it still stops the arrows very nicely. It sees an awful lot of shooting each year also. Doc

Re: The Best and Worst of Tred Barta One thing that I think we do agree on is the value of having some videos or TV programs that really do have some instructional value. However, when I think of good instructional videos, the very first one that comes to mind is "Bowhunting October Whitetails" which was done a couple of decades ago by the Wentzels. I would recommend that video to anyone who is truly interested in something that is just full of tips and techniques of bowhunting. I am not an expert on videos and have not seen everything that is out there, mainly because of the shortcomings that I have already mentioned, but I haven't seen one that has done anywhere near as good a job as that one when it comes to supplying useful hunting info for the beginner and giving the experienced hunter a brush-up on the basics. For me that one video set a standard that makes all other hunting videos look completely inadequate in the instructional department. Personally, I would like to see a lot more like that one and a lot fewer of the type that serve only as a video diary of isolated hunts. That is pretty much where I am coming from on that subject. Of course, the Barta program comes way up short on that particular issue as well. Barta is strictly entertainment with his own unique twist, and I would never recommend it as a source of learning, anymore than I would any of the typical hunting shows on today. I honestly don't think that any of the video makers today would really call their videos instructional and I believe that their main interest is to entertain. The fact is that most, if not all, often fail to explain the whys and wherefores of what they are doing. When is the last time you ever saw them go over the minute detail of blood-trailing. We all know that in many cases (perhaps most), you do not just walk along a blood trail as fast as you can until you reach the deer. Have you ever seen any of these hunters actually marking the last blood as they tried to unravel the blood trail. There's a subject that is completely untouched by the video making community. Also, other than occasionally pointing out a scrape or rub, how much info on scouting is actually covered by any of these videos. Have you ever seen anything on track analysis? Very seldom do I see them explaining exactly why they chose the stand location that they did. Oh, they may show some form of picture that shows the stand location, and the expected entry location of the deer, but never anything about how they arrived at those locations. This ties in with their lack of detailed scouting discussion. And on and on it goes. 90% of the TV programs that I have seen occur exactly like I described in my earlier reply. The emphasis today is merely on showcasing trophy animals with very abbreviated descriptions of how the deer went from the approach to the scene where it finally dropped. For me this does get to be very repetitive and eventually boring. Now I realize that this is because of the time constraints of the 1/2 hour TV format, and perhaps under those circumstances they are doing the best that they can do, given their idea of what the show needs to be. However, that does not mean that the show is adequate for holding viewer interest. By the way, when it comes to equipment performance, remember that you are not dealing with an impartial, and unbiased source of information, since equipment selections and usage are generally the result of potential sponsors. You will never see equipment failure on any of these shows where they actually identify the product. In fact I can't recall any video where they found any fault with anything they were using. I have even seen some equipment discussions during these shows that sound more like commercials that the real ads do. I really don't think that these programs are good places to make equipment purchase decisions. Now for those who just like to see big deer shot, these videos and TV programs are probably adequate for entertainment. I also recognize that there are a lot of people who demand nothing more from their hunting videos, and that is fine. Apparently, that is where the market is. Unfortunately, I need more. I need variety, meaningful content and some indication that the video maker is willing to step out of the box and actually apply some imagination to his programming. Barta does not satisfy all of that, but at least it is a program that has tried to break the mold and explored the possibilities of some different twists on their presentation. Is it the best example of being different? .......Probably not. But it is at least a start. Doc

Re: extreme makeover home Leave it to me to have such questions, but I have to wonder how these people who formerly lived in shacks and some times have severe income constraints can afford the annual taxes on these places from year to year. I mean some of these people go from living in some outbuilding to living in a million dollar mansion. Knowing how tax assessments can drive people out of a community, I have to wonder how they can keep up with those new tax bills? Doc

Re: No baiting/feeding of wild deer in VT. New law. The way I read it, there seems to be little concrete understanding of the mechanics of CWD transmission. But, if I were a gambling man, I would place some pretty heavy odds that animal to animal contact probably is not a good thing. The fact that VT is concerned about this disease is probably some pretty good news. As far as I see, there are no significant boundary features that will stop the spread into VT from NY. I would think that reasonable restrictions like prohibiting feeding and baiting might be a fairly prudent move. It certainly is better than watching your herd be decimated by the disease and later blaming your game commissions for not acting on a known threat. Hopefully, that is not the ONLY actions they are taking, but it does seem like a reasonable place to start. Particularly since it really has such a low impact on your ability to hunt. Let them do their thing. There may not be a whole lot of info on the disease, but what there is resides with the professionals. Doc

Re: The Best and Worst of Tred Barta [ QUOTE ] On the topic of the more mainstream shows. I personally will never grow tired of seeing the typical bow hunting video. I hold the majority of those hunters in very high respect. Every hunt is a little different, location, weather, strategy, shot difficulty, and the bucks are all different. Every time I see a new hunt on television or video, as normal as it may be, it gets my blood flowing. I love to hunt and I enjoy these videos for the entertainment and very much for the education. Each new hunt you see can teach you a little something. I don't see how any person who is passionate about hunting can grow tired of learning more about it and seeing it done the right way. [/ QUOTE ] I cannot honestly say that I have seen anything new in any of the average hunting videos ....... Nothing! They all happen just like I described in my first reply. No surprises. I could write the script. No attempts to instruct. No attempts to change the action or subject matter. I just watched a Buckmasters show that once again was the same ol' rehash. NOTHING is new and nothing instructs beyond a very few, not-so-important, items that have already been shown and discussed in the previous 500 videos and TV shows. I would like to hear from anyone about the last, brand new piece of information that they have learned on one of these videos that has added to their hunting or knowledge in general. I suspect that if you asked any of the video producers whether or not their videos were meant to be instructive, they would have to admit that there is very little time spent on any instruction other than the kind of advertisors wares they were using and the name and address of the outfitter service that produced the action. Now I do occasionally watch a summer re-run and from time to time, I have been known to re-watch an old movie, but when you get into watching the same thing for the 500th time without a break, I think it time for a change-up once in a while. Barta provides that change-up. Whether you like him or not, one thing that has to be admitted is that there is absolutely none of that predictable worn out repetition of years old scripts and scenes. I will not try to defend the wounding sequence on his muley hunt. I realize that it merely shows the reality that a lot of us have experienced, but perhaps that was something that we needn't have shown the public. However, that said, I would like to point out that there are already plenty of unethical shot selections being displayed on TV. There are also some shows where the wounding losses were not admitted to, but are strongly suggested if the viewer pays attention. While we all know that wounding losses often become a part of bowhunting (and gun hunting too for that matter), I am not in favor of broadcasting that to the public. If this became a regular theme on his show, I would definitely start changing my opinion. I know that barebow instinctive shooting does occasionally appear to be just wild flinging of arrows. That whole single motion method of drawing and releasing looks quite casual and doesn't appear to be as practiced and precise as the hunter using all the modern sights and other equipment, but actually shot execution is every bit as precise as any other kind of archery. It may look careless and reckless, but believe me, it is not. His muley hunt was not the best from that standpoint and I think it was showing just how difficult a bowhunt in that kind of terrain can be. Also, I don't really think that a lot of the shots were as distant as the camera made them look. I believe that the shot that finally connected was under 20 yards. At any rate, as we watch these guys put on their shows, there will be some things that we like and some things that we don't. But one thing that I will be demanding from now on is that they stop taking the hunters interest for granted by failing to be innovative in their filming techniques and subject matter. I know that not everyone demands that. Just look at how many bass fishing shows there are that just show guys pulling in one after the other for 1/2 hour at a crack. Boring! But they keep showing up, on the outdoor stations. Somebody must be watching them. Not me! I'm a bit more demanding than that and require that these video producers actually put some effort into their programming and stop treating me like someone who will buy or watch their product regardless of how little thought goes into it. Doc

Re: Why not feed the deer? As near as I can gather from the overwhelming majority of replies, it appears that baiting is simply a waste of time and money. It appears that no one has shot a deer from a baitpile and mature deer use the bait stations only nocturnally if at all. So why would any state go out of their way to legalize something that doesn't even work? The fact is, that in spite of all the denials, baiting must actually be quite effective, at least in some areas, or the practice wouldn't be used at all, and all these many manufacturers of all those expensive feed dispersal machines would be out of business instead of growing and multiplying. Actually, I suspect that the subject of baiting will never really become an issue here in NY. With the discovery of CWD, I would suppose that the last thing they would ever want to legalize would be something that concentrates deer onto single point feeding. Actually, that has been their position for years even before the advent of CWD in the NY herd. Baiting and feeding have been illegal for quite a long time. A long list of herd and habitat health issues have been the primary reasons that I have heard for the DEC's opposition to those practices. By the way, I see that no one has responded to Swamphunter's comment about baiting starting "feeder wars". It sounds perfectly logical that feeding deer through bait stations or feeders could negatively impact your neighbor's hunting. Is that something we really want to be involved in? Maybe so, but I'd just as soon not start that kind of thing going in my area, and I'd just as soon not see it happen to me either. I don't have the money or the desire to get into that kind of a thing. Doc

Re: The Best and Worst of Tred Barta [ QUOTE ] I seen a preview for him to hunt with a big knife. [/ QUOTE ] I'm not sure what it is that he intends to get with a knife, but I would love to see a show where a guy could do that. I'd also like to see someone get a deer with a spear. That would be the ultimate hunt! Under normal wild, fair chase situations, to be able to get that close to your prey is a remarkable challenge that truly puts the emphasis on "hunting" and all the skills needed for hunting. I'm not sure how many of you people watch the program all the way through, but an awful lot of his arrogance is offset by the humbling scenes that follow. Scenes of him screwing up or being told by his guide that he just did something stupid do not wind up on the cutting room floor like all the other shows on TV. If he truly had an arrogant personality, believe me, those scenes would never be seen. I see his show as the first attempt by anyone to apply a bit of honesty to hunting shows. It's a bit refreshing. Doc

Re: Anyone going to Star Wars next week?? I absolutely want to see it, but will probably wait for the crowd to die down a bit. I don't think I will wait for the DVD because I'm sure the special effects will be much better on the big screen. Doc

Re: Why not feed the deer? I just deleted my last reply, because I mis-read the original post. The title didn't agree with the message and I responded to the title. As far as baiting is concerned, I would be opposed to it being legalized here in NY. Where it is currently legal, that is their business and in some states there are very legitimate reasons for allowing it. Here in NY, there is no need to treat our deer like some Pavlovian experiment. I don't believe that there is really any justification for trying to train our deer to come to a specific, pre-measured shot location. When I get that desparate to get a deer, then I suppose it will be time to quit. Baiting is not necessarily a guaranteed situation, but it can be. And in some situations can reduce hunting to the same level as shooting domestic animals at a feeding trough. Now I know there are some who will try to muddy this discussion by comparing baiting to food plots. Forget it! there is no way that you can compare training deer to come to some pre-designated exact spot vs. drawing them to the entire perimeter of a field. Don't even go there. It's not that I am some big fan of food plots for hunting, but that doesn't even belong in the same discussion as baiting. Frankly, I am getting a bit tired of reading about all these various schemes to treat our wild deer herd as some kind of farm commodity in the name of hunting. That sort of activity in no way represents anything to do with hunting in my mind. people who have commercial deer farms do not call the slaughtering time a hunt, and there really is no reason for us hunters to start treating hunting like slaughtering livestock. Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate exactly why we are out there hunting in the first place instead of hanging out at the local meat market. I could be wrong, but I don't think we really want a wild deer herd that comes running to the sound of a timed feeder going off. Is that hunting? I realize that not every baiting mechanism works flawlessly, and that there are no real guarantees that baiting will always work, but I have read enough articles to understand that occasionally it does work out to be a guaranteed situation. I also assume that those who attempt baiting are certainly hoping that it will work out that way or they wouldn't be investing the money in the feed or the mechanisms to disperse it. It's that mindset that makes me question whether hunter mentalities have arrived at the "deer at any cost" attitudes. It's the kind of thing that makes internet hunting all of a sudden pop up on the market. I think it is good to occasionally question just why you are hunting and exactly what does hunting mean to you personally. I believe that if more people did that, there probably wouldn't be any discussions about baiting. Doc

Re: How many Deer have you shot ?? I've been hunting deer for so long that there is no way that I could possibly remember how many I've gotten. I know it's a pile of them though. Doc

Re: New hunting law for kentucky!!!!! About the only thing that I have seen that indicates the potential for crossbow usage is the fact that the Ohio crossbow harvest now exceeds the bow harvest by quite a bit. You can draw your own conclusions from that. It sounds like bow season has kind of lost its identity out there. Did it affect compound sales ...... who knows? Doc

Re: Deer hunting with outfitters!!!!! I have a bit of a different attitude when it comes to outfitters and guides. I once got a pretty decent buck during gun season that never made it to my wall. Why? Because it was the result of some hunter or hunters that happened to accidently push him my way. My hunting abilities meant absolutely nothing and perhaps that deer might have shown a bit of my marksmanship, but nothing else on that particular hunt had anything to do whith the challenges of hunting. I view assisted hunts in exactly the same way. If the hunt is not 100% the result of my activities, it has no where near the same degree of satisfaction as one where I did the scouting, patterning, set-up and successful shot execution. I really don't want someone else doing any of these things for me. The only moose hunt I have ever gone on was one where I did all the planning and hunting myself. No I didn't get a monster bull, but it was one of the most satisfying and challenging animals that I have ever harvested. This is a personal viewpoint that I have and is not shared with a whole lot of other hunters, but that is just the way I feel that my hunting has to be done. Certainly, my wall will not be covered with huge record book animals, but everyone that hangs there is 100% of my own doing and means a whole lot more than something where someone else did all the parts of the hunt that put the animal in front of me at shooting range. I can understand how a guided hunt could be a lot of fun and I certainly don't take anything away from those that do it. My attitude is just a personal quirk in the way I view hunting and certainly is not intended to be indicating any right or wrong in anyone's approach to hunting. There is nothing wrong with guided hunts ...... it just not for me. Doc

Re: The Best and Worst of Tred Barta His fishing shows are worthless to me, because I have no interest in that kind of fishing anyway. However, I really do enjoy his bowhunting shows. There are currently no shows on TV that show traditional bowhunting. While I am not a traditional bowhunter, I certainly enjoy watching those who can do it successfully. For years now, I have been watching the usual hunting shows and have gotten to the point where they are just plain boring. There is no variety, imagination, or uniqueness. Basically once you have seen a couple of them, you have pretty much seen them all. Let's face it, most of the shows are some guy sitting in a box-blind with a bench rested high powered rifle picking out exactly the right semi-domesticated huge buck as they all approach the feeder. The bowhunting shows are always exactly the same. First you see the hunter sitting in his treestand making idle chit-chat. Then he declares that a buck is coming. "Oh, golly, it's a nice one". The camera pans in on a nice buck approaching (sometimes with it's tongue hanging out from being driven into just the right position). Then the funky music starts as the deer gets within range. The shot and away goes the deer with most of the arrow sticking out. The hunter gets out of the stand and the next thing you know, he is yelling "there it is" in a surprised voice as the camera views over the deer toward the approaching hunter. There you are, that's your typical bowhunting video. The people change but the action never does. Pretty boring stuff when you've seen it 500 times before. There is no one who can accuse the Barta show of being common and boring. I never know what to expect him to do next. Yes, they show the misses. They show the wounds. They show many of the stupid mistakes he makes. That's why they call it the "best and WORST of Tred Barta. His personality is something else. It is obvious that he has taken lessons from the Rush Limbaugh show on radio. My personal opinion is that his personality is strictly a made up gimmick for the show. He certainly doesn't need that kind of nonsense, but I must admit that it does get the show noticed and stirs up a fair amount of controversy. I'm willing to bet it doesn't hurt his ratings at all. Just look at all the free advertising he gets on forums like this one. Yes, there probably will be some time when I finally get tired and bored with his antics too, but at least for a while, I have an opportunity to watch a hunting show that is fresh and new and unlike all those thousands of hunting show "clones". Doc

Re: Why not feed the deer? *DELETED* Post deleted by Doc

Re: has anyone ever shot a deer they werent aiming Has anyone ever had an arrow deflected by an unseen twig? Have you ever seen how dramatically a deflected arrow can change course? I don't think the original question was about mis-identifying your target, or being such a bad shot that you wind up hitting a completely different animal. But, I will tell you that I once had a deflection on a 10 yard shot, and the arrow never made it to the deer. I also had another deflection on a 25 yard shot that still wound up killing the deer but was no where near where I was aiming. So while I have never shot an unintended animal, I do see where there is always a legitimate way that it could happen through some sort of freaky fluke accident. And it may not necessarily relect negatively on the shooters abilities or ethics as indicated by some. Doc

Bare shaft tuning is something that I seriously doubt that most archers can successfully pull off. In theory, it is a way to get a bow perfectly tuned, but the process is designed to emphasize improper arrow flight to make improper set-up easier to detect. Unfortunately, it also emphasizes shot execution and shooting form problems to the point where even some rather minor form and execution errors that normally cause no major shooting problems, will show up in the bare shaft tuning process and begin to give all kinds of confusing and conflicting indicators on the paper. Obviously there are some who can make this process work for them, or it wouldn't be written about and offered up as a viable tuning method. But, personally, I have never had any real success with this method. Doc

Re: California to ban hunting over Internet [ QUOTE ] Supporters have suggested the remote hunting could be beneficial for hunters with disabilities [/ QUOTE ] I have tried to imagine just what a handicapped person would really get out of such an activity. Being able bodied myself, I know it is impossible to put myself exactly in the position of being handicapped, but I am really having difficulty understanding how an internet hunt could give a handicapped person the feeling of having actually participated in a hunt. I am fast approaching the age and condition where many of my abilities are being slowly eroded, but all the these kinds of phonied up programs and activities that I have ever heard suggested to keep infirm out in the field have very little appeal for me. My hunting style has always been very individual and self reliant. In fact, that is pretty much one of the main reasons why I find hunting satisfying and challenging. Something like an internet "hunt", would just be a complete turn-off, and as someone already indicated, I would find it downright insulting and certainly not a proper way to end a lifetime of honorable "fair chase" pursuit. Doc

Re: Hey NY\'ers....anyone else get a call??? Some of that sounds like a survey that was being taken by the DEC at Avon's National Hunting and Fishing Day about 3 years ago (Livingston County), before CWD was even discovered here. The survey sounded like the DEC wanted to know what the public knew about CWD and what their attitudes were about it. Doc

Re: Public or private???? A good point has been made here. Not all private land is that much different from public land. Where the private land is wide open to public access, there really is no difference. There is also some public land that is so vast that it doesn't see the pressure that some private lands see. Doc

Re: California to ban hunting over Internet I agree. It's hard to imagine that I would ever agree with anything done in California that relates to hunting, but I sure do agree with this! It's a very unhappy day that it has to come to passing a law for such a ridiculous thing, but that's just the way hunting attitudes are going and since the issue has been forced now, I'm awfully glad that they have drawn that particular line. Doc

Re: OK American Idol fans...... Scott got the boot strictly on his appearance. That guy could really sing, and it would been a whole lot better for him if the program had been on radio. Bo has got a semi-unique voice that kind of makes him my favorite now. I am always wanting some unique star to come out of these shows that has something new to offer either in their voice or singing style. Unfortunately, I am always disappointed. None of the contestants have been anything trend-setting or anything you couldn't already hear on the radio during any half-hour. They have all been pretty good ....... just not GREAT. The same thing goes for Nashville Star. There just doesn't seem to be anything new. Doc

Re: Whats your shortest shot About 2+ yards from the ground. Deer walked directly on the opposite side of the tree I was standing behind. Shot another at 7 yards. Most of my deer have been taken between 15 and 20 yards, with the longest being 25 yards........ all but 2 were from the ground. Doc

Re: Whats the longest shot u ever connected on 25 yards Doc

Re: Ever kill 2 deer with same arrow and broadhead But a more interesting question would be has anyone ever killed 2 deer with the same SHOT? Now that would bve a bit difficult to explain to the game warden, wouldn't it? Doc

Re: Hey Texans...... Another interesting story: I heard on the TV the other night that England expects to be having wild hog problems in the future. Their population is starting to expand dramatically. It sure will be interesting to see how they will handle that problem with all their wacko animal rights attitudes. Doc