Doc

Re: Bowhunter numbers So, I did a bit of scrounging around in my old Bowhunter magazines just to see if there are any alarming trends. Here's what I found for NY: 1983.....95,000 bowhunters 1984.....102,409 1985.....110,000 1986.....107,000 1987.....105,000 1988.....110,000 1989.....missing - probably loaned out the issue never got it back 1990.....156,273 1991.....157,211 1992.....171647 1993.....177635 I let my subscription lapse for a few years until 2003 2003.....167,000 2004.....198,118 From what I can see, there is no downward trend. If I had a few free weeks, I could do the same thing for all the other states, but I probably wont. At least, I would ask that you don't hold your breath. I did notice that in 1986 and 1987 and 2003, the numbers did go down, but came right back stronger than ever, so that just shows that short term trends can be quite deceptive. To my recollection, there was nothing unusual in those two years. The only possibility that I can think of, and I am really GUESSING at this, is that perhaps that was the time when mandatory bowhunter education came into play here in NY. I am absolutely NOT sure of that, but that is a possibility. At any rate, as you can see, the numbers go up and the numbers go down, but the general longterm trend is up and probably signals that at least here in NY bowhunting is as strong or stronger than ever. This generally is political "good news". However since current numbers are over 198,000, and they started out in 1983 at 95,000, and considering that they aren't really making any more land, the density of bowhunters has also increased. Add to this the fact that hunting habitat and access is, and has been, rapidly declining, you can see where this can lead in the very near future. This high hunter density may be a self correcting problem as more and more bowhunters begin to get disgusted with falling all over each other, these rosey numbers may indeed begin to decline, and it may not just be a gentle downswing. Ha!..... it's just like deer over-populating their habitat. At some point the herd size plummets in a precipitous, uncontrolled, fashion. The one big feature of bowhunting is the quiet quality of the hunt. I believe that is what keeps bowhunting high on the popularity list with hunters. When that starts to suffer in a significant way, who knows what the results may be. It's a tough double-pronged problem that has no reasonable solution that I can see. More hunter numbers are needed for political security, but adding more hunters may be the catalyst that causes further sizeable and irreversible declines. Perhaps that is what is happening in some states already. Doc

Re: American Idol I think that the whole darn bunch of them messed up the whole 60's theme program. That was a great decade of great music and they all messed it up, with the exception of Scott Savol who did the Motown sound justice. In fact, if I had to chose one right now, I think he would be my choice. It's a real shame that his appearance doesn't match what we would expect an idol to be, but I find myself pulling for this guy every week. Doc

I posted this on another bowhunting forum and got some interesting responses, so I thought I would give the realtree members a crack at this one too. This is a topic that many will consider to border on heresy, but here goes anyway. There seems to be absolutely no argument among hunters as to the need to keep our numbers at a high level. The political benefits are obvious. But, I am curious about another aspect of that subject. Supposing we were able to magically increase our numbers by a factor of five (that's just an arbitrary number)? Would we all really be happy about that? I think those that own private property would like that because they would not really be effected. They could continue the call for greater hunter numbers and still continue to refuse admittance to their property and not really be impacted by hordes of new hunters. I also think that those who lease hunting property would also be similarly un-effected. Hunting clubs that own or lease hunting land probably are quite comfortable with calling for more hunters to be added to our ranks, because they too control the population on the lands that they own or lease. But how about those that hunt on wide open private land or worse yet, public land? What would it be like have your scouting ruined by having that level of pressure? Would the quality of your bowhunt still be as satisfying as it is now, as you watched other hunters marching back and forth past your stand, or found another bowhunter sitting a short distance away? When we say that we want to grow our numbers, do we really mean it? Or do we really mean, let's grow our numbers but I really don't want to see anymore hunters in my area? How committed are we really to this principle that hunter numbers should be increased by any means and at any cost? I have gotten real curious about this question in recent years as I encounter more and more actual competition for hunting space. It seems to me that others have been thinking about this also as more and more hunters have started to buy and close off their land to other hunters. I have also noticed that most leases or hunting clubs have settled in on a finite number of hunters per acre, so they too recognize that there are limits as to how many hunters can comfortably fit on a section of hunting land. And yet, even with all this denying of access and competition for hunting space, we all, to a man, continue to say that the shrinking hunter numbers is a travesty and that all kinds of activities and measures should take place to reverse that trend. So the question is, we all mouth the words, but do we really mean it? Of course the other question is, how do we balance this need for more hunting representatives with the reality of shrinking hunting areas? That half of the question can't be ignored either. Doc

Re: CBS Evening News (Internet Hunting) The next time you are tempted to say that you are willing to support any hunting practice or method as long as it's legal......keep this fiasco in mind. It sounds like we all have limits. Doc

Re: What is this thing with arrow speed? I've got to admit that I wasn't always unimpressed by speed. Early on, I was so heavy into target archery, that I had to have every new little advantage. Everyone in our little group of fanatics had to have the smoothest, fastest, quietest, jazziest looking, set-up going. Whenever I got a new tournament bow, the first thing I had to do was to strip the whole thing down into little pieces and re-paint it with the flashiest metallic flake paint I could dream up. That sort of thing was important to me and we always had a lot of fun customizing our equipment and trying out new gadgets and go-fasters. It was always a race to be the first with the latest technological gadget, or piece of equipment. So I am not totally unsympathetic to that line of thinking. Eventually, I got away from tournament shooting and started to look at my equipment in a bit of a more utilitarian way (cheaper too). That doesn't mean that I still don't appreciate someone who has great equipment. I still remember those days and they were great fun. So if someone wants to go all out to have whatever they consider to be the best in their mind, I'm all for it. If speed is your thing......go for it. Whatever keeps up your enthusiasm going is a good thing! Doc

Re: What is this thing with arrow speed? I think the advent of 3d shoots has emphasized the value of speed and people have just carried it over into their hunting. That may not be the only reason for interest in speed but it certainly is one of the contributing factors. For those who insist on taking long shots at game, the value of speed is obvious. It does erase some of the problems of slightly mis-judging distance. For me with my self imposed limit of 25 yards for deer hunting, speed doesn't even enter into the equation. I know that my 60# is more than enough to do the job on a deer at 25 yards, and that's all I have to know. So if somebody asks me how fast my arrows are going, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and say "fast enough". Doc

Re: Lost Hunting Land Does anybody have any real good ideas on how to solve this problem of diminishing hunting land? If you were heading up a task force to increase hunter access for your state's game management department, What kind of suggestions would you put forward for consideration? Doc

Re: If you could hunt with a pro? When it comes to hunting, I guess I just don't get into the hero-worship thing. Fact is, I usually can't even remember the names of most of the guys on TV. So, I guess I really can't answer your question. I do remember one guy, and I can assure you that I would NOT want to hunt with him, and that is Tred Barta. His name I can remember, but it has nothing to do with his hunting prowess. Doc

Re: Single Shots... What I like is hearing the boys with their 5 shot automatics ripping up the hillside just as fast as they can pull that trigger. What do I like about that?.......The fact that I am no where near them. Doc

Re: Weird skull Now there's a deer that probably won a lot of fights! I'll bet there aren't too many bucks that would be expecting that antler coming at them. Doc

Re: How many deer have you MISSED w/ your bow? Actually, this thread leaves me a bit uneasy. We had a topic similar to this one on another forum in which I participate except the topic asked people about how many deer they had wounded without retrieving. Within a short time, the replies started looking like a poll being taken by peta as material for one of their ads. Thankfully, after a lot of heated debate, that subject quickly died a welcomed death. Now, you guys know that I am for discussing just about anything under the sun, but a listing that shows just how many deer get shot at and missed or wounded, really serves no purpose in terms of education or helping any archers out. however, given the recent declaration of war on bowhunting by the antis, I really have to wonder about the wisdom of this kind of thread. Maybe I'm getting a bit too paranoid, but I would really like to make the anti-hunters find this kind of data on their own rather than having us supplying it to them. Doc

Re: Lost Hunting Land The stories of lost hunting land are getting quite common these days. It's becoming a real problem. Here in NY, the DEC has put this problem on their next "to do" list. They recognize that part of the "diminishing hunter" syndrome involves the rapidly fading access to prime hunting lands. I'm sure they also are not too happy with having a lot of land locked away from their ability to manage the herds. Don't ask me what they have planned. Probably nothing yet since the activity was described as a near future activity. Personally, I absolutely can't think of a single thing that won't encroach on landowners rights or taxpayers wallets. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with. Doc

Re: A Little Disappointed I'm a bit surprised and encouraged at the volume of replies that show a basic understanding that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Most hunting forums would be full of replies berating anyone who would even think of taking something that was not a candidate for the records books. It kind of restores my faith that there are still a lot of hunters out there who understand that hunting is not necessary a sport that you keep score at. Doc

Re: American Idol One thing is absolutely necessary when I watch this program. I have to record it on tape so I can fast-forward through all those commercials. Otherwise there is no way that I could possibly get through it. Doc

Re: NY Age Limit?!?!? I really don't understand why there is any limit on age. What is the purpose of that restriction? As long as an adult is with them, what is the big deal about the child's age? Now when it comes to establishing a minimum age for a child to hunt on their own, that is a different argument, but when accompanied by an adult (preferably a parent), I really don't see what the issue is. Doc

Re: American Idol American Idol is about 2000% better than previous years. They did a whole lot better job in weeding out the obviously bad ones. Among the male singers, it is pretty darn hard to figure who should go. They're all pretty darn good. As far as the girls are concerned, they are all pretty good too, but nobody who is outstanding. A possible exception is the blond that sings in a country style. I can't remember her name, but she is definitely the best of the girls. Doc

Re: Gun Safety (must see) So, Barney Fyfe became a DEA agent eh??? Doc

Re: NYS DEC\'s Revised Proposition ***UNOFFICIAL** Yes, that is the way the message that I received yesterday. But remember, this is not proven fact yet, and like any rumor, it is always subject to a bit of embellishment along the way. And yes, you're right. If that turns out to be true, there are going to be a lot of very irritated "in-line" owners. Your comment about a "primative" season is interesting. I wonder if that is where they are heading with this. They may eventually consider combining all early season deer hunting activities (bow and muzzleloader) into one big primitive weapons season. Wouldn't that be exciting? Doc

Re: NYS DEC\'s Revised Proposition ***UNOFFICIAL** [ QUOTE ] You can pass along as much information as you would like Doc. When people no longer react because they have been desensitized by the flood of rumors they have been reacting to...then what??? How do you get those people to show up at a meeting again to hear the new, latest, and now true proposal by the DEC???? Thats what I see as the biggest danger is the desensitizing of the masses. FYI....I'm not walking around the woods with my Bow drawn the entire time while I hunt....that does not mean that I'm not ready to fire when the chance happens. [/ QUOTE ] GW- As far as I know, there will be no more meetings relative to these proposals for people to show up at. And as long as information such as this is clearly labelled as unofficial, there really shouldn't be any de-sensitizing going on. I am always for the free flow of information on these forums. It is up to each member to assign whatever value or credibility to it that they want. There may be someone who after hearing some of this, may have the resources to pursue the story, verify it and organize something to change the outcome. That absolutely cannot happen if we all are afraid to share information as we become aware of it. To use your own analogy, I always find the hunt goes a bit smoother if I see the deer coming before I have to shoot. Doc

Re: NYS DEC\'s Revised Proposition ***UNOFFICIAL** I received the following e-mail mesage yesterday: [ QUOTE ] Guys I went to the Rochester Sportsman Show this weekend and got this unofficial input from a retired NY DEC biologist that was working a booth up there (not a DEC booth)....... He says the state is dumping the one week black powder during the bow season. He said they are not planning on opening the bow season earlier but are planning a 3 day black powder season tied to Columbus Day (this year 10/8, 9 & 10) Sat thru Monday. Antlerless only via DMU but for the side hammer percussion & flintlock boys only. [/ QUOTE ] This sounds like the original message on this thread. There is a bit of variation about the dates, but it is also tied to Columbus day. This is in no way true independant corroboration because it could have originated from the same source, for all I know. It's even possible that this retired DEC biologist may have heard it here. However, it is interesting that I have now seen this story coming from two places. Again this is labelled as unofficial, so take it for what it's worth. Doc

Re: NYS DEC\'s Revised Proposition ***UNOFFICIAL** As long as the information is clearly labelled as "unofficial", we are all free to lend as much credibility to it as we choose. I think there is no real problem with passing along any info that anyone has heard about this issue. If nothing else, it keeps us from sitting here fat, dumb, and happy thinking that we have put the DEC on the spot and that they have no options but to drop the early muzzleloading proposal. Perhaps we should already know that, but given your same circumstances, I think I too would feel obligated to pass the information along and let each reader decide for themselves how to interpret it. Personally, I really have no reaction other than to say that this is the kind of maneuver that we had all better be vigilant against. It certainly will keep a lot of us watching the issue closely......As we should! Doc

Re: Lost Hunting Land It's just a sign of the times. That situation is certainly not unique or even very rare. I have been hunting for close to 50 years. Just imagine how many great hunting spots I have seen go out of hunting production. It's not a condition that is ever going to get any better, and eventually will lead to the demise of hunting for the common man. Doc

Re: You know what really burns my butt? I've had some chili that did a pretty good job of butt-burning too. Doc

Re: hog skull Well, as long as were getting into skull stories, I have to tell you about the 7 point buck skull that I found down in the bottom of our 150' deep ravine. There was a big piece of antler embedded in the skull just under the eye socket. I'm not sure whether that was what killed him or whether he got knocked down into that ravine. The ravine walls at that point of the creek are straight up and down shale. Anything slipping down over that is just plain dead meat! Doc

Re: NYS DEC\'s Revised Proposition ***UNOFFICIAL** I think we are going to hear rumors like this flying around right up until the day the final version is officially published, so I wouldn't get too excited just yet. Besides, if they are going to pull this kind of bait & switch tactic, there's nothing much you can do about it anyway. However, this kind of slippery action wouldn't really surprise me, in fact, I am almost expecting it. Doc