Doc

Re: NYS season change proposal Times have changed. I think we are witnessing another impact from all of the non-hunting political forces in the state, including anti-hunting forces. Whether we want to admit it or not, the DEC is just another political government body. As such, they must bend to the will of the public and face all the political realities that other government agencies buckle under to. Over the years, I have seen the DEC move from being primarily a fish and wildlife agency to an all-inclusive environmental agency that now has it's resources spread into so many different areas that it has taken them away from fish and wildlife management. They have become obsessed in the area of pollution control and other non fish and wildlife activities. The portion of wildlife management that is left has gotten to the point where they have begun to take the hunters for granted and have shifted their efforts to satisfying the more politically powerful and more influencial forces when it comes to game management. We now see financial and even anti-hunting forces being more heavily catered to than the hunters or even good game management policies. For example, if you take a look at the list of stakeholders that comprise the citizen Task Forces (see the DEC web-site) in each WMU, it is interesting to see which ones are pro-deer hunting forces and which ones are anti-deer forces. The makeup is quite lop-sided toward the anti-deer interests. So, if you see an emphasis on herd reduction, this is not necessarily a result of herd management concerns. This hasn't been a recent instant change, but it has been an evolutionary change that is finally getting to the point where it is getting pretty darn obvious. Eventually, this will come back to bite them. As the hunter numbers start to fall rapidly, they will find themselves less and less able to control the populations of wildlife. They will also find the license sales part of their budgets declining without any compensating budget increases from the state. I believe this is why we are all of a sudden, seeing almost panicked efforts to attract people back into hunting. It is also the reason that they are frantically searching and experimenting with ways to increase the effectiveness of their deer herd trimming programs. Unfortunately, the bowhunters are not real effective in that area, and in their desparate state of mind, it looks real attractive to them to replace bow seasons with some sort of firearms. I am quite sure that if they could quietly do it, the early muzzleloader season would really be an "all firearms" season in order to maximize the doe harvest potential. Perhaps, some day, this will be exactly what this early muzzleloader season evolves into..... who knows? At any rate, bowhunters are at the very bottom of those constituents that they feel they must worry about. We just happen to be quite loud, for the time being anyway. We have become something they must "work around". We are in the way of their efforts to satisfy their new concerns and their more influencial constituents. I believe that is why it is starting to look like a battle between the DEC and hunters (especially bowhunters). I'm afraid it is just one of those political realities that we are going to have to deal with, now and even more so in the future. Doc

Re: What do you like to see in a hunting video? I would like to see a detailed blood trailing job when everything didn't go as perfect as you would like. Doc

Re: NYS season change proposal Cutter 10x- Actually, the discussion is more interesting when more people get involved. If your opinion differs with those stated here ...... so much the better. It's not much of a discussion if everybody sits around agreeing with each other.....lol By the way.....Happy Easter to you too! Doc

Re: Deer Camp When I was first old enough to legally hunt on my own, a highschool buddy and myself went up on our hill (about 1/2 mile) and built a pretty good lean-to. It was shaped mostly like an oblong igloo with just a small entrance that could be covered. The thing was built out of a lattice-work of saplings with pine boughs for roofing and turned out pretty weather-tight. When deer season opened (gun) we hauled all our supplies up to the new camp and spent the first three days of the season hunting out of our camp. That was great fun. We shot a few squirrels too for a bit of camp meat. Unfortunately, we didn't get any deer, but the whole experience was really something. Back in those days, we didn't have all the nice warm sleeping bags and stuff like today, But we made do with piles and piles of blankets. Comfort was never an issue even though we had about a 1/2 foot of snow on the 2nd day. That was my first hunting trip, and only a few since have come even close to that one. Doc

Re: What do you like to see in a hunting video? Someday, I would like to see a video that featured just tracking. I'm not talking about blood trailing or just following obvious tracks in the snow. I'm talking about track identification and analysis of all animals. I think that would be an interesting skill to acquire. The big problem would be finding someone who is expert on the subject. Doc

Re: bow scopes First of all, let me say that I have never tried a scope. So, if I'm saying something that scope users have found to be untrue, I'm sure someone will set the record straight. And when I say scope, I am referring to the tubular version that may or may not have any magnification and is like a pistol scope. However the idea is a bit fascinating. First of all, it would be nice to dump that stupid peep sight. I would guess that a peep would not be required since there is only one way of looking down a tube and still having the sight picture correct. Think about it. If your anchor wasn't absolutely correct, you wouldn't be able to see down through the tube properly in a concentric fashion, would you? It also seems that inconsistant hand torque would be quite obvious also. About the only negative that I could see is making the reticle visible enough in low light situations. Perhaps this is where the red dot might work better than cross-hairs. It's an interesting concept. Sounds like something I would like to experiment with if I had a handfull of dollars to throw around ............... which I don't....lol Doc

Re: NYS season change proposal [ QUOTE ] Yes we will lose two days but as for "prime rutting days" ..don't you know the rut changes from one year to the next? Or don't you believe Charles Alsheimer and all the research he has done? I think he is on year number 9 of the 11 year study. It's science guys. Fawns are born at different times from one year to the next. That means the rut must take place at different days from one year to the next as well. [/ QUOTE ] I don't believe that Alsheimer has indicated that rut activity is suspended during those 2 days either. Any way you look at it, our bow season took a 2 day hit. What value you place on those two days, is up to each individual, but I know that there are a lot of bowhunters who value every "week-end" day that they can get. Also, it no cause for celebration to see us losing season length for the first time in NY bowhunting history. [ QUOTE ] As for the frog analogy, if you put a frog in cool water and then increase the temperature he will not just sit there. His metabolic rate will increase causing him to become more active. [/ QUOTE ] However, this topic isn't about frogs and I'm sure that you and others got the point. [ QUOTE ] I like to view hunters like this....as the heat of the fire goes higher we become more active as a group up to a point. If the heat gets too high we just say, "To heck with this crap, do what you wish" It's going to happen. [/ QUOTE ] However, that is not what actually happened when the DEC tried to get the whole thing all at once was it? They turned the heat up way too fast, and the bowhunters didn't throw in the towel as you suggest. However, from some of the reactions that I have seen with this new, "low-heat" version, It is obvious that a lot of our vocal bowhunters who were very incensed about the "high heat" version are now nicely calmed and once again, back in line. I think this is what was expected, and I think this is why the new proposal has been formed the way it is. [ QUOTE ] Buckshot, Don't understand why the DEC feels so compelled to give the muzzleloaders an early season? As said by the DEC, they need to control the doe population earlier in the year. It's simple herd management. The DEC is unhappy with the archers not harvesting more does. So, the DEC wants to increase the interest in hunting and they think the ML is the ticket. 1/3 of all hunters in NY are bowhunters. There are fewer ML hunters than bowhunters. [/ QUOTE ] One thing is for sure, this proposal accomplishes absolutely none of the DEC's goals of "doe population control", since 75% of the muzzleloaders will be excluded by the in-line and scope restrictions. These restrictions also don't do a whole lot for "increasing the interest in hunting" for exactly the same reason. So exactly what is the purpose of this wacky version of a muzzleloader season. Quite simply it is a way of introducing firearms into the early season and is intended for embellishment in subsequent years. Or, the proverbial "foot-in-the-door" as the president of the NY muzzleloaders association so eloquently put it. Doc

Re: NYS season change proposal One thing I do believe is that the DEC believes in what they're doing and that their goals are what they consider to be honorable. I happen to disagree with those goals as regards the muzzleloader intrusions, but I am in no way maligning their motives as being something sinister or without good intent. However, with all that said, it does not change the fact that all bowhunters who believe in a position contrary to one or more of their policies should act as strong advocates for bowhunting and the protection of what so many before us have struggled to acheive. There is no one who will act on our behalf other than bowhunters themselves. NYB has proven to be a pretty darn effective advocacy group for us, and the bowhunters have shown that when properly aroused, they too are willing to act when their season is attacked. I was very much surprised and pleased with the solidarity of the bowhunters. However, I do not expect the same massive reaction in the future when the very same goals by the DEC are approached in a piece-meal fashion. I have seen enough comments on this and other forums to see that the "piece-at-a-time" approach works. Already, there are many who see this small compromise proposal as harmless. It's like boiling a frog. Throw the frog into hot water and it will immediately jump out. Place the frog in cool water and slowly raise the temperature and he will sit there until he is boiled to death. That technique works, and the reactions by some to this compromise proposal proves it. When NYB comes up with their new counter-strategy, I will be surprised if it receives the same massive support that their first efforts received. It is hard to see how that counter-strategy will be effective without that same level of support. In a year after the implementation of this new proposal, when the in-line and scope restrictions are dropped for this 3-day season, will NYB be able to whip up the same level of opposition as they did this year? How about the year after that when they extend the season a couple of days into the archery season? How about the year after that when they drop the "does only" restriction? Those simple little changes over time will build the early muzzleloader season's popularity to such a point that they will be able to put it any place they want, inside or outside bow season.....mission accomplished! [ QUOTE ] A boycott is a negotiating tool isn't it? Radical but highly effective when used in great numbers. Will three days cause me to boycott? No, not if it's just for "primative MLs" with very restrictive rules...DMP's no scopes etc. but start chomping the archery season up and new rules will have to be set. [/ QUOTE ] Chomp.....chomp... As I pointed out in my last post, they already took a bite. This proposal results in the season being shortened by two week-end days (prime rut days). As I also pointed out, this is the first time in the history of NYS bowhunting that the bow season has ever been reduced. Yeah, it's just a little chomp, but just like that frog ..... a little at a time results in the same ending. Doc

Re: NYS season change proposal [ QUOTE ] This is good rather than bad. Looks like we knocked em back. The NYB association needs to be careful. You want to fight for what you believe in, but not to the extent to look greedy. If it is only primitive muzlleloder for a couple of days, then it may be ok. At least it is not the week of muzzleloder. [/ QUOTE ] You guys really don't get it do you? The only thing that has happened here is that the DEC now realizes that they can't get all they wanted at one time. I will guarantee that they will have the complete original proposal implemented within 4 or 5 years. If the inline and scope restriction lasts more than a year, I'll be amazed. That 3 day season is just the beginning. I'm not even sure that the "doe only" thing will last very long. Pay attention to the goals that they laid out at the outset. They haven't changed there minds about these. They've just switched tactics. Now, in terms of US looking greedy, let me repeat the earlier argument that the muzzleloader is the superior weapon during regular gun season. Which means that they already have their own season ..... the regular gun season. Plus they have the late season. Now they want more. Just who is greedy here? When the handgun hunters start wondering just why they are being left out of all this early season action, are we going to be the nice guys and invite them in for a chunk of the action. When the crossbows finally get established here in NY can we all be nice guys and carve off a bit more? Also, let me point out that this new proposal has already cost us the last weekend of bow season. That's right, while we were trying to be nice guys and keep from looking greedy, we lost 2 days of peak rut hunting and no body is even mentioning that. For some of you working stiffs that don't have lot of vacation available, this could be a pretty significant impact. The DEC did that without even batting an eye. For the first time in the history of New York bowhunting we have had our season reduced. Do you really think that they won't cut our season more in the future as competing special implements enter the picture? By the way, this new proposal is exactly what was mentioned by a bowhunter at one of the meetings. It was another guy who was trying to be accomodating and not appear "greedy". No, this is not good news, and the whole impact of this move will unfold over the next few years and I can guarantee that you won't like it. Doc

Re: What do you like to see in a hunting video? That sounds unique. I think that is the kind of innovative thinking that the hunting video industry needs. Doc

Well, a rare thing has happened. It appears that early rumors have actually turned out to be true. Perhaps the leak was intentional just to guage the level of opposition from the bowhunters. I'm afraid far too many of us were entirely too eager to prematurely compromise, and the DEC picked up on that. The source is the latest issue of New York Outdoor News. The headline: DEC alters initial S. Zone proposal. According to this article, "DEC officials indicated that the most controversial portion of the plan - an early muzzleloader season in mid-October will be modified from the original, week-long offering to a 3 day, primitive weapon season that would begin Oct, 10 (Columbus Day) They added that the new proposal is still tentative and still subject to review." There was also this quote from Eric Bratt, president of the NYS Muzzleloaders Assn.: "It remains to be seen how "primitive" muzzleloading season will be, but inline weapons and scopes have almost assuredly been removed from the equation. That means that many - Bratt estimates as many as 75% - muzzleloaders won't be eligible for the hunt. I'm really not sure if they have decided whether it will be limited to round ball, flintlock or matchlock," said Bratt who called the primitive season "a foot in the door" for muzzleloaders." A FOOT IN THE DOOR. I want to emphasize that phrase for those of you who may look at this as good news. The man is absolutely correct in characterizing such a season in that way. Now first of all, let me point out that absolutely none of this satisfies any of the reasons given by the DEC initially for their original proposal. Not even close. So why do you suppose they would offer this weak and ineffective counter-proposal. Mr. Bratt put it very succinctly when he said it offers the muzzleloaders a "foot in the door". In other words, this is only a temporary move to be greatly expanded in the very near future, when bowhunter opposition is calmed and ineffective. New York Bowhunters are not done with this yet. Kevin Armstrong, president of NYB is quoted as saying, "We'll launch into another phase of opposition as soon as it's announced". I am still trying to imagine what would be in that next "phase of opposition" that could possibly be effective. It seems like the DEC has executed a perfect end run around the bowhunter opposition. So what is next? Well, the article said that "the revised proposal could be announced even before the end of March". I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the NYB plan of action is then. Doc

Re: What do you like to see in a hunting video? What I want producers of hunting videos to start doing is to ask themselves the following questions: What would my favorite complete hunting experience be like? Is this video like that? How can I best capture the whole feeling, and mood of this hunt? Have I represented the remoteness? Has the camp experience been portrayed properly so that viewers wish they had been there? Any other non-hunting activities or happenings that would add to setting the atmosphere? Have I shown the scouting adequately so that the viewer knows exactly why I picked stand locations? Is the blood-trailing properly shown and explained? Were there interesting observations of other animals during the hunt? How am I going to portray the long wait on stand in such a way that it doesn't look like complete boredom? Are the sights and sounds properly represented? Etc., etc. What makes this hunt completely different from any existing filmed hunting trips? Why should anyone pick this video over any of the hundreds of others? Is there some kind of story being told here or is it just a documentary? Is this video supposed to be instructional (at least, in part)? If so, do I have enough detail? What have I glossed over? What have I dwelled on too much? Did I assume that the viewer knows too much. In other words, did I skip the basics? Are my illustrations of deer behavior clear and well explained? Is there anything on this video that looks dis-honest or faked? Hunters are quick to pick up on staged actions and are very quick to become offended if they think someone is trying to put one over on them. Do I really need this background music playing constantly? Is the music selection appropriate? Does the narration sound like natural conversation, or does it sound like a cheesey version of someone reading a script (Jackie Bushman)? Have I paid attention to the little details? For example, does the shot take place in late afternoon, but when the deer is found, it's early morning. If so, that has to be honestly explained as to why that happened and not just hoped that no one notices. Is everything shown beyond reproach, legally, ethically, etc.? We've all seen the reactions to videos that show low-percentage shots, or other practices that reasonable people could quarrel with. Doc

Re: This happened on other side mountain of new spot Do bears ever get rabies???? Think about that next time you are walking in the dark to your stand. Doc

Re: Herd Management with Snipers. [ QUOTE ] Well Doc, it's a darn good thing you don't live in southern Connecticut. Urban hunting is the norm here. From my normal morning stand on week days, I don't need a watch. I can tell what time it is by which bus is going by. Thats just the way it is here. We all can't be so lucky to hunt in a rural setting. [/ QUOTE ] Man! that is so unfortunate. I think in that situation, I would have to do some vacation planning and traveling to do my hunting. You don't paint a very pretty picture of your typical hunt. Doc

Re: Does anyone besides me keep a deer journal??? My journal consists of a huge Excel spreadsheet. Everything is recorded. All stands are coded with a number, and I have another spreadsheet that gives full descriptions of each stand including preferred wind direction and maintainance notes. I have over 130 different ground stands listed. Even the ones that are no longer used. They are the pinpoint locations that I reference when I notate deer sightings. For each trip out, the weather is recorded along with the qty, sex, and actions of any deer seen at each stand, or on my way in or out of my stand or scouting encounters. I can do a sort on any wind direction and print out all stands that are suitable for that wind direction. I can sort to find out deer encounter success ratios for any stand on any day, for any weather condition. I also have bigger areas designated for my hunting area so that I can look back and see what areas are hot on what date, and pretty much what the deer patterns are at any given day of the month. It is a fantastic hunting tool, as well as a great way to record hunting memories. I could go on and on with the features of my journal, but you probably get the idea that I record and use just about any kind of data that you could ever imagine using. Doc

Re: Herd Management with Snipers. I guess I don't have as hard and firm an opinion as most of you when it comes to this kind of issue. There are a lot of points that Dihardhunter made that make a whole lot of sense. Personally, this issue would never really effect me because there is no way that I would ever hunt in an urban setting. However, for those that might want to do such a thing, you might want to consider the fact that every little negative wrinkle of such a hunt would be sure to get blown completely out of proportion by the liberal media of whatever city the hunt was taking place in. Doc

Re: Covering up a corn pile. Oh man! I am really trying hard not to react negatively to all this talk about conditioning wild animals to make them easier to hunt. There is something about treating deer like Pavlov's dogs, or some dumb farm animal that really rubs me the wrong way for some reason. I guess if that's what hunting has become for some, far be it for me to throw a wet blanket on it. Everybody's view of what hunting is all about is different. That's what makes the world go around I guess. Doc

Re: This happened on other side mountain of new spot Just don't be making any pony noises on your way to your stand. Doc

Re: Books on calling deer Bob McGuire used to sell a pretty good cassette recording that went into all kinds of great detail on deer vocalizations. That was back in the 80's, so I'm not sure it's available anymore. It was pretty good because deer sounds are pretty hard to describe in a book, but on a recording, you can actually hear them. Even if McGuire is no longer selling that tape, I've got to believe that there is somebody out there selling a tape or video on the subject. Check out Cabela's, Gander Mountain, Bass pro or any of those mail-order catalogs. I'll bet you can find something. Doc Doc

Re: Bow setup/tuning for beginners DVD These kinds of DVDs and books and articles are not only useful to the beginner, but even if you have been doing your own tuning for years, you would be surprised at the new techniques that some are using. Also, it doesn't hurt to review some of the things that you may have forgotten over the years. Doc

Re: Tunning my bow? If you do take your bow to a pro-shop, stay there and watch what he does. Ask questions and understand everything he is doing. After that, along with the links that have already been provided, and also perhaps with a good book on tuning, you should be able to do it yourself after that. Doc

Re: Found a nice spot, but need advice!!! [ QUOTE ] My thing is I'm concerned some overly anxious hunter might see me moving around a little in all that brush from behind me and take a shot. [/ QUOTE ] If you are bowhunting, I wouldn't be very concerned about that. The red flagging may draw the attention of other hunters who just might start using your prize spot everytime you aren't there. That wouldn't be a real good thing. [ QUOTE ] Well, I did some early scouting this weekend. I found me a beautiful spot [/ QUOTE ] I assume that the sign that you found was from last fall. Generally, I don't pay a lot of attention to recent sign found in the early spring. The winter habits and locations of deer does not normally represent what they are doing during the fall hunting season. [ QUOTE ] Other concerns is black bear [/ QUOTE ] I wouldn't get overly concerned about the bears. But, if repellant makes you feel more comfortable, go for it. If your jittery about bears, chances are you won't stay on stand very long, so you might as well do whatever you must to feel secure. Doc

Re: Bowhunter numbers I wish I could find the bowhunter numbers from back when I started bowhunting in the mid-60's. I'll bet the number was ridiculously tiny. One thing about that column of numbers that I posted looks a bit suspicious to me. The 2003 number looks way too low. I re-checked that number, and I didn't make any typos, but I think somebody did. First of all it is less than the 1993 total, which isn't totally unbelievable, but when you compare the 2003 number to the 2004, you find an 18.6% increase. That I just don't believe. I think somebody at Bowhunter (or their source) flubbed things up on that one. At any rate, the numbers do show the upward trend, so perhaps some will see my point about eventual overcrowding. Those numbers along with the fact that more and more land is being taken out of hunting production, kind of shows what I have been observing. If bowhunter numbers leveled off and stayed static from now on, my feelings probably wouldn't be hurt a whole lot. I know.....that sounds real selfish and self-serving, but I believe that the future health of bowhunting depends heavily on preserving the high quality of the hunt when bowhunting. If we ever lose that, I believe we will see bowhunting fade permanently into the sunset. Doc

Re: How many hunters on a 40 acre piece of land A 40 acre parcel is not a very big hunting area. Depending on the size of the herd, and the capability of the habitat, the answer to your question could range all over the place. Seldom is the habitat laid out such that the deer use all of it. Preferred food sources and bedding terrain may keep them in one little corner of your 40 acres. Or you may have food resources laid out across the whole 40 acres that will keep the deer milling throughout the whole place. Another factor would be the shape of the 40 acres. I have approximately 40 acres that is only 400 feet wide. I find myself hunting the next door state land a lot. I don't think anyone could give you a real good answer without a good bit of scouting first. After a while, you will know that 40 acres like the back of your hand, and it will be obvious just how many stands that particular parcel will support. Of course, the other thing to remember is that if you sit in the same stand every day, even a good spot will turn cold. So, you need the ability to rotate through several areas without disturbing the other hunters that are using that parcel. And of course they must be able to do the same thing. 40 acres sounds like a big hunting area, and, of course depending on the deer density it may very well turn out to be. But, most of the deer country that I've seen, I would guess that 1 hunter and maybe 2 at the most would be able to work 40 acres without eventually spooking the deer right off the property or eventually getting to the point where you are interfering with each other. All the above comments are relative to bowhunting. If you are talking gun hunting, forget all that. During gun season, you can pack as many gun hunters on there as the shape of the terrain will safely allow. Doc

So, what's with these handicapped parking spaces? The other day, I was parked in the J.C. Pennys parking lot waiting for my wife to do some shopping, and I happened to be able to watch the handicapped parking area. I watched several people park there and then go running and skipping into the store. They were doing everything but cartwheels and back flips. Meanwhile, I see this old ancient decrepit guy who apparently had to park out in the lower 40 because all the reserved spaces were full. He's dragging a leg and pulling an oxygen cart with the one good arm that he had left. Snails were passing him on the right and turtles on the left. I even considered calling 911 for him a couple of times on some of the stops every 3 yards that he had to make. I didn't think he was going to get going again. Ok, maybe some of that is a bit of exaggeration, but you get the idea. The guy was in pretty tough shape and it was obvious that he was what the reserved handicapped parking spaces were really intended for. Are these little handicapped signs that you hang over your mirror for sale at the department stores or something? It seems like everyone has one these days except for those that need it. I swear I saw no fewer than 6 of these so-called handicapped people pull in and out of these spots and not a one of them really looked in anyway incapacitated to me. What is wrong with people that they have to abuse every little system that people try to set up. There seems to be absolutely no consideration for those that really need to benefit from these reserved spots. I'm telling you, I am getting more and more disgusted with people every day! Doc