Doc

Re: Your Opinions......... I have a 1000' gravel driveway that runs through the middle of a thicket. There are deer trails that cross the driveway all the way up the driveway. Doesn't bother them in the least. In fact on several occasions, I have seen them walking almost allthe way up the driveway. They love it! Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier [ QUOTE ] Hey Doc, I think you got some issues to work out. The attitude you display and the way you are going about this will get you no where on this issue. [/ QUOTE ] I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my little attempt at injecting a bit of humor into the subject. I'm even sorrier that you are unable to even understand that that was exactly what it was. [ QUOTE ] I don't know where you get off on the fact that if NY allows an early ML season that it’s an all end to the NY bow hunter and our deer heard. [/ QUOTE ] Did I say that?...........I don't think so. If you can't debate what I actually say, please don't be imagining things that you wish I had said. [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Quote: For crying out loud, people, the muzzleloader is a longer range weapon than a shotgun! WHERE THE HECK IS ALL THIS NONSENSE COMING FROM? WHERE IS THE JUSTIFICATION? [/ QUOTE ] This is a comment I would not expect from a fellow sportsman and it is disturbing . [/ QUOTE ] Rather than being disturbed, how about answering the question? When you consider the effectiveness of the muzzleloader vs. the shotgun vs. the bow, Where is the justification for an early muzzleloader season? Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back [ QUOTE ] I too heard many shots in my area on the day before gun season. It's called target practice and every year the weekend before gun opens people shoot. [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, everybody climbs 1/2 mile up to the middle of the hill to do their "target practice" Doc

Re: New York Deer Management To my knowledge, there are no official deer counting activities conducted by the DEC on a statewide basis. Actually, given the terrain, even aerial attempts at counting deer probably wouldn't be all that reliable because of all the dense cover. I know that a few years back, they attempted to do an on-the-ground count in one of the larger local parks that had a population problem. I don't think they ever came up with numbers that they felt very comfortable with. I believe they did eventually try helicopters and still didn't really get repeatable numbers. Understanding the exact population numbers is something that various game managers have been struggling with for years. They have tried all kinds of schemes including counting droppings and somehow extrapolating numbers from that data. Nothing has really proven to be very reliable and all are extremely man-hour intensive and not very practical, cost-wise. That is why they have come to rely on deer-take statistics. Actually the actual count means very little. What is important is the observable impacts that population has on the habitat. For example, browse lines in the woods is a red flag indicating over-population. Deer condition is another indicator. Certain deer diseases can indicate population problems. That is the purpose of the check stations that very few people actually check their deer into. To my knowledge, these deer check stations are the only way that they try to verify their statistical results, but unfortunately they have not tried to involve hunter observations and hunter perceptions. This free army of observers are going completely unused. I do wish that there was a good reliable way of counting deer, but I'm afraid that is a way off. Some day, I hope that refinements of infra-red satellite imagery will automatically handle it for us, but apparently we are not there yet. Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back I have read over the info from NYB and think that it is a pretty good response. I do think some attempt should be made to identify the factors that make it necessary for bowhunters to have an early season as well as pointing out that those factors do not exist when hunting with a muzzleloader. We have a unique season for a reason, and that reason is that we require undisturbed deer in order to be effective at getting within the range of our weapon. Muzzleloaders can make no such claim. It should also be pointed out that the muzzleloader is a more effective long distance weapon than even a shotgun and therefore has no more justification for a special early season than any shotgunner could claim. For their 3rd proposal, where it says to leave the seasons alone, some mention of Saturday opening dates should be added, unless they are against that too. Personally, I have no problems with Saturday openers. Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier [ QUOTE ] The thing that really bothers me is that to fight this we have to fight against other hunters. I don't like that idea. [/ QUOTE ] Hey, we weren't the aggressors here! What would you do if the proposal was for shotguns instead of muzzleloaders............just shrug your shoulders and say ok? [ QUOTE ] I also think that it would have been much better to give the ML's the week before the shotgun. [/ QUOTE ] No. This wouldn't have been acceptable either. It's unnecessary and unacceptable. People, the way to look at this is that firearms season has been moved into our bow season. There is absolutely no functional difference between a shotgun and a muzzleloader when it comes to effectiveness. Bow hunting, being an extremely short range weapon requires the assistance of a season of undisturbed deer. Exactly what feature of a muzzleloader makes it any more important to have an early season than a shotgun? For crying out loud, people, the muzzleloader is a longer range weapon than a shotgun! WHERE THE HECK IS ALL THIS NONSENSE COMING FROM? WHERE IS THE JUSTIFICATION? oh...oops...wait a minute ....calm down Doc....watch that blood pressure.....take a deep breath. Who-o-o-o, ok, I'm better now. There are times when I just lose patience with people. Doc

Re: VT\'s new \"proposed\" deer hunting regs! Actually, you are talking about two different and distinct things here......the deer antler quality and the general size of the herd. One has to do with AR, and the other has to do with antlerless harvests. One plan doesn't fix both. They both ARE impacted by habitat though. With a diversity that ranges all the way from fertile farmland habitat to large stretches of forested mountainsides, I would think that the approaches to both have to be modified to accomodate each different situation. Now if I was the poor hunter that was up on one of those mountainsides hunting perhaps the only buck within a few square miles, I don't think I would be particularly interested in hearing your AR talk. Somehow, I just don't think that would rank real high on my priorities. Especially if, at the same time you were talking about removing my ability to take a doe too. In effect, that kind of a combination of plans just might mean that effectively you are taking away my right to harvest a deer at all. In mountainous areas of naturally low deer population, that situation could go on for years. Now down there on the flatland where all those nice crops are keeping the herd fat, plentiful and happy, you probably would find hunters a whole lot more receptive to such plans. Do you see what I'm getting at when it comes to habitat determining whether AR is appropriate or not? In many cases, people's attitudes toward AR are formed by the conditions in which they hunt. The same thing is true when it comes to the subject of antlerless harvests. You will hear wide variations of opinions based on the specific type of ground that a person hunts. Unfortunately I would guess that your game mangers do not have the resources to tailor targets to each piece of habitat as it changes, so in many cases, the targets that are set apply to farmland and forested mountain valleys equally within a game management unit. Under those conditions, you will see a lot of variations of opinion depending on exactly what kind of habitat each hunter hunts. It's not an ethical thing or a moral thing. It's just the realities of each person's situation. Doc

Re: New York Deer Management [ QUOTE ] I like the idea of a detailed questionaire - to supplement the reporting system. Doc - why not hammer it out and submit it to DEC? [/ QUOTE ] Sounds like a plan...It'll give me something to do this winter. Actually, for those that think this is a wacko idea, I would like to point out that it actually has roots in something that the DEC is currently engaged in. In that wonderful free issue of New York Outdoor News, there was an article about how "New York's ruffed grouse hunters are being asked this hunting season to participate in a new study to monitor the populations of the game bird". They go on to say that "The information recorded by grouse hunters in this survey will provide insight into statewide population distributions and trends for this popular game species as habitats change both locally and on a landscape scale.....The wildlife manager said that the survey would supply "trend" information, whether grouse populations are up or down in an area, region, and statewide." It seems to me that exactly that same sort of system could be and should be implemented to complement the deer hunting management statistics. Doc

Re: NYS DEC - Fight Back In the interest of honesty, there is a paragraph that I tried to delete from my last reply (unfortunately I can't). I absolutely mis-spoke when I said that the following was found in a DEC press release: [ QUOTE ] Another thing that I read in a newspaper press release from the DEC was that bowhunters are now viewed by the DEC as primarily buck hunters. They are now showing some reservations about bowhunters hoarding a prime portion of the deer hunting year and then not getting a big enough bang for their buck in terms of population control of antlerless deer. I'm not going to say one way or another whether I agree with their perception. My opinion on that doesn't matter anyway. I only bring this point up because I feel that it may be something that we get thrown at us during the upcoming meetings, and we better have some answers. I suspect they have some statistics to back up that claim. Do we have a rebuttal for that? [/ QUOTE ] While this thought may or may not be actually rolling around in the heads of DEC personel, this particular line of thought and the thoughts about bowhunters being "primarily viewed as buck hunters" were written by an outdoor newspaper writer that has absolutely no credibility or any connection with the DEC. I should have checked my sources first before writing that. Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier [ QUOTE ] Muzzleloaders have every right to have an early season in the southern zone [/ QUOTE ] And perhaps they have equal rights to that time slot. So why stop at just one week? Perhaps eventually we can extend this magnanimus attitude to out crossbow brothers and carve off another week or two for them. But wait! the largest group among us doesn't have an early season.....that would be those that use shotguns. Can we really leave them out? At some point, we are going to have to re-examine why an early bow season was implemented in the first place. We have to understand why hunting with a bow requires relatively un-disturbed deer. We have to recognize what it is that makes a bow an implement that requires the unique conditions that only early seasons can afford. Once we've thrashed all that out in our minds, I think it will be obvious why firearms should not be put into the mix. Doc

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters Ha, it looks like your post got hi-jacked somewhere along the line.........sorry about that. I didn't even realize it either. So anyway....back on topic, I understand the point you are trying to make about button bucks being caught up in the harvest, but what are you suggesting.........to eliminate antlerless harvest? I think that will be a real hard-sell to your game management people. That's really the only population control tool that they've got. Doc

Lampliter- Thanks for publishing this info. That is exactly what I was looking for. It's going to take a while to digest it all and then I'm sure I will have some comments. In the meantime, I thought it would be useful to re-post the letter that Matto received after sending an inquiry to the state on the planned re-structuring. It may be useful to have both opposing positions in the same thread. Matthew, Thank you for sharing your views regarding the deer season restructuring proposal for the 2005 season. We plan to conduct a structured public outreach effort in early February. This effort will include public meetings similar in nature to the 2002 State of the Deer Herd program and will provide additional opportunities to provide input and discussion. It is our intention to implement changes to NYS's deer management program that will make full use of deer hunting as the most primary tool for controlling deer numbers on a statewide scale. In the process of doing so, it is our desire to provide equitable access to the deer resource for all hunters, while concurrently enhancing and expanding overall recreational opportunities. Clearly compromises will need to occur in some instances, and some long standing traditions may change as a result. However it is our hope that by doing so that we will be able to provide a balance of opportunities that will carry over to the next generation of NY deer hunters. By doing so, the legacy of deer hunters and deer hunting will be maintained and will continue to provide a valuable and important service for all of the citizens of NY. The regulations to enact changes to the 2005 Big game hunting Season will be formally proposed early in 2005 so that changes can be implemented in time for the autumn of 2005. This regulatory process also includes a 45 day public comment period during which formal reaction to the proposed regulations can be registered with the Department. The DEC is obligated by law to respond to the comments received as a part of this regulatory process before adopting a regulation. Thanks again for sharing your views and opinions. Dick Henry Big Game Biologist/Wildlife Services NYSDEC , Division of Fish, Wildlife and Marine Resources 625 Broadway Albany, NY 12233-4754 Phone: 518-402-8867 Fax: 518-402-8925 [email protected] ----------------------------------------------------------- I want to call your attention to a couple of phrases in this letter that we are going to have to address. The first one is: "it is our desire to provide equitable access to the deer resource for all hunters" and second - "it is our hope that by doing so we will be able to provide a balance of opportunities that will carry over to the next generation of NY deer hunters. Those two phrases are strong indicators that they are looking at this as a fairness issue. in other words, they have become convinced that muzzleloaders are also entitled to a piece of the preferred season. Rightly or wrongly, it is obvious that they have been convinced that some balance has to be restored over this part of the deer hunting year. Whether we agree or not, is not the point. The fact is that someone has done a good selling job to the DEC while we were sleeping and we had better attend the meetings with some good arguments to undo this new sympathy for muzzleloaders. Another thing that I read in a newspaper press release from the DEC was that bowhunters are now viewed by the DEC as primarily buck hunters. They are now showing some reservations about bowhunters hoarding a prime portion of the deer hunting year and then not getting a big enough bang for their buck in terms of population control of antlerless deer. I'm not going to say one way or another whether I agree with their perception. My opinion on that doesn't matter anyway. I only bring this point up because I feel that it may be something that we get thrown at us during the upcoming meetings, and we better have some answers. I suspect they have some statistics to back up that claim. Do we have a rebuttal for that? Doc

Re: is hunting going to the \"clowns\" [ QUOTE ] Doc and I were just having a good discusion about this very thing in the deer hunting forum, right Doc ??? [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, there is no question that the most damage to hunting has been done by slob hunters. That includes not only those of today, but also those that have done damage to us in the past. My feeling is that a lot of the more spectacular stories are not necessarily about slob hunters. Some of these are about "crazy people". It just might be that today we have more crazy people. Is that possible? could the human race be evolving toward mental disorders? Just take a look, not only at hunting, but at everything that's going on. I'm beginning to think that the mental stability of the human species just might be heading toward wackiness! Reserve your padded cell now and avoid the rush! Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier That's very nice, but do they have some problem with forums? I would think that they would be interested in reaching as many bowhunters as possible and would be using all available resources (especially free ones) rather than worrying about whether you are a member or not. Another nice side affect is that they might just see their membership spike if the start reaching out through other sources. Doc

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters [ QUOTE ] I don't honestly think the herds are getting reduced like some think. They've just learned to "hide" better when the pressure is on. [/ QUOTE ] Those are some pretty fast evolving deer you guys have got there. Most of the observations that I've been reading about here are differences that guys have been seeing over the past year or so. Why did these deer take so long to get so smart. No, your absolutely correct. Some hunters do get fooled by the annual disappearing deer syndrome and swear that all the deer are dead. But, most of what I have been reading has not been about the deer that get real smart shortly after the guns start going off. Most remarks seem to be based on observation made very early on in the season and in some cases they are observations made during scouting and the bow season. Most of the remarks are based on comparisons to previous years, which really has nothing to do with in-season deer education. I have quite a bit of confidence in these reports. I don't think that they are made out of ignorance, and certainly people know what they see. The one thing that I'm sure of is that conditions can vary completely from one area to another. Heck they can vary from one township to another, or even one property to another. So I would be pretty hesitant to be coming up with theories as to why someone's observations are wrong. It's quite likely that for their particular hunting grounds, they are absolutely right. Doc

Re: New York Deer Management [ QUOTE ] Doc, What you are suggesting is to reinvent the wheel. We already have a reporting system that (if every successful hunter used) should be reliable. [/ QUOTE ] If you are talking about the meager data that is required with every deer kill report, that is not what I'm talking about. There is nothing there about what is observed, only what the sex, age, method of taking, and location of the take. This is vital info, but it is only a small part of the information that could be available if they would just use the free information resources that are walking all over the ground that the DEC is trying to manage. What I am speaking about is a system that would take into consideration the observations of hunters. All hunters would be nice, but particularly those hunters who have opportunities to spend considerable time on the ground that is trying to be managed. Using myself as an example, I have been hunting the same area for 40 years and spend considerable time scouting and evaluating movements, size and conditions of the herd in that area. It seems to me to be very wrong to be just keeping all that knowledge and observations to myself while those in charge of management are forced to use methods that average important, but insufficient statistics across large volumes of land without any way to check if their statistics are returning correct results. I also know that I am not unique. Many others, all across the state, annually go through the same scouting, note-taking, and observation efforts that I do. Our observations span several years on the same grounds. So far, all these information resources are being completely ignored by the DEC. These people could supply the very on-the-ground verification that all statistical management programs need to be effective and credible. I would imagine that most hunters (or, at least, many) would be more than willing to fill out questionnaires that if carefully designed could be just the tool that allows the DEC to successfully micro manage all localities within the huge WMU's. They could also be used to supply verification of their statistical results to ensure that they are not getting too far out on the wrong limb. The design of the questionnaire would be the part that requires the expertise of the game management people to ensure that the data reported is pure and free of individual bias. I'm sure this wouldn't be that big a task. If such a program already exists, I am unaware of it. If there is something in place such as this, then the DEC has to be a bit more effective in letting us know about it. The DEC should not be exclusively interested in deer that have already been taken, but should be equally interested in all the deer. I know that deer take numbers supposedly can be massaged through statistics to arrive at herd condition and numbers. If all things remained the same, I would have a lot more confidence in those statistics, but they don't. Numbers of permits change each year which can have different effects on hunter success. Hunter abilities and equipment are constantly improving which can impact take results, now even the seasons will be changing, which will have a great impact on deer take results. Changes such as these can negate the entire baseline numbers that the current year's data is being compared against. How can statistics evaluate data when the baseline information and measuring criteria that they are being compared against is a moving target. Now I am sure (or at least I hope) that these changing criteria are at least attempted to be accounted for, but I'm afraid that it is starting to be management based on assumptions which are based on assumptions, which are based on assumptions, etc. etc., with none of the results being confirmed with on the ground observations. In short, I don't believe a deer herd can be managed from an office chair. It appears that management techniques have evolved into just throwing out gobs of permits until the catastrophic results get so obvious that a decision to pull back on permits is made. This means that the herd will continue to cycle wildly from overabundance to scarcity. That's not management, that's just chaos. I think we have the resources to complement the current system and do better and we are just continuing to ignore that resource. We have come a long way in deer management techniques. The antlerless permit system has proven to be a powerful tool in shutting down a run-away deer population. However, this is not the time to rest on our laurels and declare success. We now have to learn how to use this new tool in a proactive way that guarantees the elimination of this constant target overshooting. It's time to reflect on results, research new and improved ways of doing business and put those last little refinements in place so that the job can be done right. Doc

Re: Question for Pa. Deer hunters [ QUOTE ] Also, for those "hunters" that say they are hanging it up...they just aren't real "hunters" to me. [/ QUOTE ] Well, as discussed on many topics before this one, everyone has a different view on what a "real hunter" is, and comments such as these really serve no useful purpose. If you are saying that all management policies should be aimed only at those hunters that eat, breath and sleep hunting, 24/7, and the heck with the rest of them, I certainly would disagree with that. We are going to find ourselves in a very lonely political position if we start applying those kinds of standards. I think it's good to remember that not all hunters have the same motivations and drives that we do. However, they are hunters too with all the same rights and expectations as the rest of us. Doc

Re: VT\'s new \"proposed\" deer hunting regs! [ QUOTE ] I'll tell you, the deer herd in this state is in serious trouble, and something has to be done about it. [/ QUOTE ] When you say that the deer herd in VT is in serious trouble, what exactly do you mean? Too many deer? too few deer? Disease? Starvation? I have only been to VT a few times and never to hunt (pretty much, just passing through), so I really don't know what you are referring to. My recollection is that the areas that I saw were quite rugged with little agriculture and a lot of dense wooded mountains. I imagine that the whole state is not like that, but what I saw didn't really look like prime deer habitat like some other states have. Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier This year I saw quite a few hunters out during the regular season with their muzzleloaders. Most that I talked to preferred them to using a shotgun. Granted, you most likely will only get one shot, but the additional accuracy has made that a very small concession. Doc

Your going to have to find a way to deal with it. That situation just is not going to get any better.......ever! Even areas that are not being developed are being denied for hunting access. Urban dwellers with pocketfuls of money are moving out into rural areas, buying and posting large tracts of land. Many of these people are still under the influence of Bambi and are not allowing any hunting at all on their new holdings. Others are influenced by thei uneducated views on guns and property owner legal liabilities and are locking their property up over those issues. Still others have had unhappy experiences with hunters on their property and have taken steps to protect themselves and their property. More and more farmers are being forced out of business, or are getting to retirement age, and using their land as their retirement pension. Without any interested kids to take over the farm, who can blame them. More and more hunters are turning large amounts of prime habitat into commercial hunting ventures and are fencing, posting and patroling former open hunting grounds. And, of course as you already mentioned, development is happening everywhere. Absolutely, there will come a time when the only hunting available to most hunters will be either public lands or "pay-to-hunt" commercial operations. We are already well on our way toward that now. It's a sad situation, but that is just the way it is. Doc

Re: NY\'s deer season for souther tier [ QUOTE ] Ok gents, then what are we going to do about all of this. I would really like to throw some ideas around get some facts and be prepared when they have these meetings in February. Let me know what you think. [/ QUOTE ] Well, first of all, we need to know what the party line is with the New York Bowhunters and any other NY bowhunter organizations that intend to oppose this hi-jacking of our season. It always helps if we all have our story straight. I have not yet checked to see if they have published any position papers describing their objections and solutions. It's pretty ineffective to show up and say that you don't want to see any changes. I know the fairness issue will be thrown in our face, and that is going to be a pretty hard one to fight. My main opposition to muzzleloader intrusion into our season is pretty self centered and selfish. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Therefore it is hard for me to come up with any good arguments that don't reflect those feelings. Gotta do better than that. I think it is up to the New York bowhunter organizations to be spearheading these efforts and supplying the arguments that we can support. A good start would be for them to publish their position here on this and other similar forums. How effective are they if they don't even know how to communicate with New York state archers. So here's the challenge to all those NY organizations that claim to represent and protect our sport: Let's hear what you have to say! Speak up! Here is a forum that reaches many of the state's archers. There are others that do the same. You've got potential supporters here.......use them! Doc

Re: New York Deer Management As long as your game management people are competent, honest and willing to learn from new sources, they will eventually straighten things out. The problem comes when they spend jillions of dollars designing and implementing population control mechanisms and then start coughing up all kinds of whacko excuses about deer take data that negate the conclusions that their own system's data points to. I believe in the antlerless permit system. The only drawback is in the interpretation of deer take numbers, the lack of on-the-ground verification systems and knowing when to back off. It's a system that still needs tweaking and refining. It is also a system that requires confidence in the results and honesty. I also believe that it is a system that requires the addition of independent on-the-ground checks and balances to verify the statistical data and conclusions. Primarily, that would mean that they need to learn how to extract good unbiased data from the army of hunters who walk the very ground that the DEC is charged with managing. They have a virtual untapped free resource available with free legs, eyes, ears and brains that they have never learned how to utilize to their benefit. When, or if they ever figure out how to do this, they will have a system that when combined with the existing statistical methods, will give them all the data they need to properly manage the state's deer herd. Doc

Re: VT\'s new \"proposed\" deer hunting regs! [ QUOTE ] With all this said between the two of us, I hope this in no way makes us enemies and I value your side of things as well as my side of things individule opinions is what makes us strong and unique. [/ QUOTE ] Enemies??? Heck no! Actually it sounds like we probably agree. It really sounds like I took your remarks out of context. I thought you were saying that whatever hunters we lost due to AR were just slob hunters anyway. I don't think anyone would support hanging on to slob hunters just for numerical value, but I still believe that under certain conditions, AR applied to areas that do not have large enough deer herds to support it, can put undue restrictions and hardships on the hunters in those areas and the frustration of never getting any buck, trophy or otherwise, may cut into the population of completely legitimate, ethical hunters. I guess my message is that AR eventually gets rolled out statewide, without any concern for its appropriateness for every area. I'm sure that even Vermont will roll it out that way eventually. I'm equally sure that there will be certain areas where hunters will simply throw in the towel because they will be convinced that if getting any buck before was nearly impossible, getting a buck that meets the new standards will be impossible. I think that I could sympathize with those feelings as well where I hunt. If we had AR thrown at us right now, it would be exactly the same as telling me that I will never get a legal buck again. Our herd has been whacked down to the extent that even seeing a 1.5 year old buck is quite a rarity. Hah! for that matter they have turned any kind of deer sighting into a rarity here. Ah but that's another subject. Anyway, I hope you understand where I am coming from. The viewpoint on AR can be completely different depending on what the habitat and population numbers look like and what the prospects for them are in the future. And that does not necessarily reflect their moral or ethical makeup. As far as making enemies on forums, I don't make enemies......I make conversation and debate. Doc

Re: is hunting going to the \"clowns\" Yeah, there is very little hunter slob activity going on today that hasn't been going on for decades. However, that Wisconsin mass shooting has got to top the charts as the most bizarre and the worst black-eye for hunting ever. That, along with a few other violent incidents over deer hunting that I have read about, seems to give this season a special highlight in history. I just hope that some of these events turn out to be just some uncomfortable once in a lifetime abberations and do not turn out to be signs of the future. Doc

Re: Gary Alt Where are all the deer at in Pa. [ QUOTE ] Also, one year and one area do not mean a whole bunch in the greater scheme of things. [/ QUOTE ] That's fine as long that one area doesn't happen to be my favorite hunting grounds. Then it starts to mean a lot! [ QUOTE ] Maybe you have to change the way you hunt, for the older bucks are just a wee bit wiser. Learn and adapt. [/ QUOTE ] Perhaps the AR proponents should be the ones that pay attention to that quote. Perhaps the people who claim that there are no mature bucks around are the ones that should recognize that the older bucks are a wee bit wiser and they should learn and adapt accordingly. Now there's something to think about. Doc